Ben, Locke & Jack (& Desmond)- Saharan similarities
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By seedy
- Ben, Locke & Jack (& Desmond)- Saharan similarities
- Created: May 1, 2008
- Last updated: Aug 14, 2008
- After episode: 4.9: The Shape of Things to Come
- Status: Current
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desmond [upset, crying]: Please, let me go back. Let me go back one more time. I’ll do it right. I’ll do it right this time. I’m sorry, Penny. I’ll change it. I’ll change it.
— seedy
Any number of people have already compared Jack’s first appearance in the ‘Pilot’ with Ben’s appearance in the Sahara in ‘The Shape of Things to Come’. What I haven’t seen as yet (apologies if I missed it), is anyone comment that Locke also first appears in this way in ‘Walkabout’.
In each case, the individual is first found lying flat out on their backs, and then seems dazed and confused for a few moments. If you compare Jack & Locke, everyone else is screaming/panicking on the beach immediately after 815 has crashed, but both of them seem to take time to come to their senses and realise what is going on. It is almost as if they have been dropped into the middle of a scene that is already taking place!! The striking comparison between Ben/Jack/Locke’s prone appearance seems unlikely to be coincidental - I don’t think the producers are that careless!!
After Ben appears in the Sahara, we find that he is wearing a parka with the name Halliwax on it. This obviously links in with the Orchid orientation film and we know from ‘Darlton’ that the Orchid plays an important role in this series. Therefore it seems likely that Ben’s appearance has something to do with the Orchid station. On watching the Orchid orientation film, it appears that ‘Bunny 15’ timeskips - which obviously correlates (a) with Halliwax’s description of an Island casimir-like effect and (b) Ben’s appearance at a point in time that he is not sure of! So, if we relate this to Jack/Locke, it seems to suggest that they may have ‘timeskipped’ also.
Which brings us to another characteristic of both Jack & Locke i.e. Deja Vu. Jack first (after his beatdown by Ethan)- KATE: You have to stop. The rain has washed away the trail. Even if he was here — you’ve got — Jack! JACK: I’m not letting him do this. KATE: Not letting him? JACK: Not again. (All the best Cowboys have Daddy issues) And then Locke (trying to stop Jack from contacting the freighter) LOCKE: Please. Put the phone down. JACK: No. You’re done keeping me on this Island. [Locke cocks the barrel] LOCKE: I will kill you if I have to. JACK: Then do it, John. KATE: Jack. [Locke pauses, and then lowers the gun] LOCKE: Jack. You’re not supposed to do this. (Through the looking glass)
So, there is a suggestion here that Jack & Locke have both been here before, and that somehow they are reliving the past. Does this tie in with any other character? Yes Desmond. Has Desmond ever been found prone on his back, and initially dazed. Yes. Twice in ‘Flashes Before Your Eyes’. When he appears in Penny’s flat - penelope: Oh, my God! Oh, my God! Oh, my God! [she runs to find a towel] Des, are you alright? Stay there, hang on. [The camera pulls back to reveal Desmond is lying in a puddle of red paint.] penelope: i’m just getting ice. [returning to his side] You alright? Sweetie, you okay? desmond [disoriented]: What’s happening? penelope: Well, what’s happening is the result of combining ladders, painting a ceiling, and alcohol. Are you okay? You nauseous? desmond: This is my flat?
and also when he ‘reappears’ naked in the jungle. What does this episode deal with? Desmond timeshifting and slowly coming to realise that he has done it all before. Another quote from this episode - desmond [upset, crying]: Please, let me go back. Let me go back one more time. I’ll do it right. I’ll do it right this time. I’m sorry, Penny. I’ll change it. I’ll change it.
There is also a slightly tenuous link to the Orchid. There is evidence that the Orchid and the Swan stations are in the same location. The Swan station somehow harnesses the electromagnetic radiation that is used by the Orchid for whatever reason. So Desmond’s involvement in the Swan implosion may relate somehow to this.
So all this makes me wonder, have Jack & Locke also somehow timeskipped back to a previous point. I’m sure Desmond wasn’t prone on his back covered in paint first time around, and I’m sure Jack & Locke weren’t prone on the island immediately after the crash first time around. They have all timeskipped back. It is also important to note that Desmond knows something isn’t quite right during his return to Penny, but he continues to live his life as before. It is only the sense of Deja Vu that allows him to come to realise that this has happened before. This is the same thing that happens to Jack & Locke i.e. they are not totally conscious of the fact that they have timeskipped, but are aware that certain things seem to have occurred before.
And finally, does this explain Isabel’s comment to Jack in ‘Stranger in a Strange Land’ i.e. his tattoo says “he walks amongst us, but he is not one of us.”
Key characters
| Short Name | Full Name | Episodes | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ben | Benjamin Linus | 3.20, 4.9, & 3” href=”/episodes/theres-no-place-home-parts-2-3/”>4.13 | 1729 |
| Desmond | Desmond David Hume | 2.23, 3.17, 4.5 | 859 |
| Jack | Jack Shephard | 1.1, 1.5, 2.11, 1.11, 1.16, 1.20, 3.9, 3.22, 3.1, 4.10, 4.12, & 3” href=”/episodes/theres-no-place-home-parts-2-3/”>4.13 | 1459 |
| John | John Locke | 3.3, 2.17, 1.4, 1.19, 3.13, 3.19, 4.11, & 3” href=”/episodes/theres-no-place-home-parts-2-3/”>4.13 | 1242 |
| Penny | Penny Widmore | 3.8 | 254 |
Key episodes
| # | Title | Aired | Central character | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 3.3 | Further Instructions | 10-18-2006 | John | 122 |
| 1.19 | Deus Ex Machina | 3-30-2005 | John | 100 |
| 1.11 | All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues | 12-8-2004 | Jack | 94 |
| 1.4 | Walkabout | 10-14-2004 | John | 116 |
| 1.1 | Pilot, Part 1 | 9-24-2004 | Jack | 366 |
Key events
| Theme | Relevant Episodes | Theories |
|---|---|---|
| Oceanic Flight 815 crashes | 1.1 | 586 |
Key locations
| Theme | Relevant Episodes | Theories |
|---|---|---|
| Flash-Forward: Off-Island | 4.9, & 3” href=”/episodes/theres-no-place-home-parts-2-3/”>4.13 | 205 |
| Midsection Beach (original camp) | 1.2, 1.3, 1.1, 1.5, 1.4, 1.6 | 314 |
| The Swan station | 2.20, 2.23, 2.14, 2.17, 2.1, 2.2, 1.11, 3.3, 3.8 | 470 |
REgarding the Jack-Ethan…”I am not letting him do this again”…that is nothing…Jack is merely flashing back to his childhood and displacing Ethan with his dad or the bully or whoever. Total red herring!
very good observation!
hmmm interesting theory, but i’m not buying. I’m really not into any ideas that involve jack time skipping because he wouldn’t have the regret in the future of leaving the island if he had already lived the life to know he wasn’t supposed to leave.
The puddle of red paint that you mentioned Desmond slipped in was from the paint can next to him which has the word FUTURE written on it. Red herring?? Dont know. Ive lost interest since we in the UK are still yet to see episode 9!
lamJacob - We’re talking about Jack, Mr Fixit!! If Desmond wants the chance to go back and change things for the better, then I would imagine if Jack felt he had the chance to resolve his mistakes from first time round he would want to take it. It might even drive him mad, if he felt he kept making the same mistakes!!
treesneakers - I will try and find some more direct evidence of Jack’s Deja Vu. If anyone can help, please do!
Jackofalltrades - I’m a fellow brit. Can’t belive we are 1 and a half weeks behind! Totally gutted!!
Awesome job linking Locke and Desmond with Jack and Ben!!! Who knows if it means anything in the long run but your observations get a loud PLUS ONE from me!
quick comment…
maybe the regretful Jack at the end of last season figues all this out then timeskips (or wahatever you want to call it) back to the island and becomes the Jack that wakes up in jungle at the beginning of the piot. Now he must “change” certain things to not become the regretful Jack.
So Jack’s flash forward was actually a Flashback as well…
Just a thought +1 from me.
treesneakers - Here is a link to an earlier theory from Mr Alpert. Just a few more hints that Jack as reliving his Island experience. http://lost-theories.com/theories/2007/jun/23/jacks-scar-his-forehead-big-cl/
Jackoffalltrades: go to www.lost-stream.com. You can watch ep9 now, but I don’t know if it works overseas. Try it I say. Cheers
This would also explain Locke’s ability to confidently predict when the rainstorms will end
Yes, I agree. I think Locke accepts his deja vu more readily than the scientific Jack!
THIS COULD ALSO RELATE TO WHEN LOCKE HAS SAID “YOU’RE NOT supposed TO DO THIS” TO JACK. HE KNOWS ITS NOT supposed TO HAPPEN THIS WAY because HE’S BEEN THERE BEFORE.
Seedy, I really like this theory and the connections you make about all three characters lying on the ground on their backs when they regain consciousness. Perhaps there is further meaning.
The issue of Jack directly after the crash has been discussed previously, but not Locke. However, you are also right about Locke awakening on his back as well.
You are correct that Desmond initially only has a feeling of Deja-vu after the hatch implosion, and returns to his flat. Although we haven’t seen this phenomena with either Jack or Locke, it is not to say we won’t at some point.
Jack seems very determined in the future to return to “the island”, so I am wondering if we will eventually learn that it is plausible, if one knows how, to return. It certainly seems that Jack has some awareness of this, so is certainly plausible.
Good work! +1
Seedy,
can’t remember where, but there was some post relating to the Swan and the Orchid, and they suggested that the Swan station was actually a Faraday cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage), sorry I can’t remember who posted it.
I agree with tree sneekers that the Jack scene you quoted from has to do with connecting what’s happening with Jack on the island and in his flashback.
As for the Locke scene, here is a man who has been paralyzed for 4 years. He could not move his body to brace himself for a fall, and even if he could move once he landed on the island, he couldn’t have known that his muscules would respond. Thus we see him lying helpless on the ground.
Like common threads that hold plot lines together, certain scenes and cinematographic techniques link the LOST episode to one another. Two such common threads are the uses of flashbacks and flashforwards. More similarly to the lying prone on the ground thread, is the thread of the close-up shot of someone’s eye. Using similar scenes, locations, camera tricks…gives flow and continuity to a show.
I like your line of thinking, but I don’t believe in these “time-loop” theories.
DCLostie - Talking of common threads, we have already seen the ‘time-loop’ used as a plot device with Desmond on multiple occasions. So it is already in place on Lost! Don’t you agree?
I think these are great observations!!!! I still believe that Desmond’s comment, when he and Jack met for the first time in the stadium, is the answer to this show—”You’re just trying to catch up with me, brother.” Why exactly are so many opposed to the ideas of a time loop or some kind of time shift? I rarely get a chance to view this web-site, I haven’t even been able to watch every show, but has anyone proposed any theories on states of “low entropy”? Mathematically speaking it is “possible”. Does anyone know if this would mean that time would actually “flow” backwards or that it would just slow down only making it “appear” that it is flowing backwards? Major +1 for seedy—I’m always looking for your posts!!