jack: hero to goat to hero and why i think it’s wrong
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By chevy3232
- jack: hero to goat to hero and why i think it’s wrong
- Created: Jun 4, 2008
- Last updated: Aug 14, 2008
- After episode: 4.13: There’s No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3
- Status: Current
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i’m writing this post in response to the post jack: hero to goat to hero (check it out here http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2008/jun/03/jack-hero-goat-hero/ ) i want to talk first about your belief that jack has been selfish as of late. i have to say i couldn’t disagree with you more. jack has done everything in his power to get everyone off of the island. from going into the woods after the chooper immediately after surgery (putting himself at risk) to going after hurley who is still with ben and locke to taking everyone to the radio tower to make the call to the freighter. all of jack’s actions have been to get his people off the island and back home. just because we saw the future before jack could live doesn’t mean that he was acting selfishly. how was jack to know that leaving the island would have the reprocussions that it’s had.
you say that the writers are doing everything they can to have jack look like ” the screw up, the liar, the drunk, the bad “father” (to Aaron), the bad “husband” (to Kate), the bad “friend” (to Hurley), and just the all around “Bad Guy” of the series.” and i disagree with this as well. i think the writers are doing everything they can to make jack the tragic hero that we all know he’s going to be. you say that jack was a bad father to aaron and a bad husband to kate (for the record they don’t get married) and i think this is a bit of a stretch. kate even goes so far as to tell him that he is a very good father figure to aaron and that she is happy he changed his mind. being a father figure to aaron was a tough discision for jack because of the discovery of claire and something jack steps up to the plate with. as far as his relationship with kate and him being bad at it. maybe but mostly no. jacks’ first role is to protect first and this sometimes gets in the way. his jealousy of sawyer starts the ball rolling on his downfall with kate but its his guilt, visions, and talking to locke that really gets the ball rolling. he even tells kate that he left in order to protect aaron and kate. not because he wanted to but because if he didn’t they would be in danger. this is a heroic action to take the person you love most in the world and leave them so they can be safe? heartbreaking and tragic yes but being a bad guy no way.
as far as hurley goes. jack and hurley’s relationship becomes strained because of hurley’s decision to go with locke. but once home they start to rebuild that relationship (hurley being at the funeral and jack coming to the birthday party). and when hurley starts to lose his mind jack is the first one there and as we learned in the season jack is an emergeny contact for hurley. the doctor calls him to tell him that he is no longer taking his meds. so jack was still looking out for his friend even with their friendship going through some difficult times.
i agree that the writers like to give character turn arounds but the characters you listed aren’t really or were really bad guys. charlie for exmple went through a tough patch during season two (his drug addiction is what helped shape him as a character we love). but everything he did he did for his love of claire and aaron. even when he was kidnapping aaron it was to protect him it was never meant to hurt him. as for michael you say that he stabbed everyone in the back for his own selfish reasons… i’m sorry but i see michaels perspective. he is a father and a father will do anything to get their child back. could he have gone another road? yes but blame michael for his decisions would be unfair. and i think it’s safe to say that michael pays for what he did mentally and his sacrifice at the end shows that he WAS a good guy who made a tough choice for the safety of his son (ps jin has no reason not to forgive michael).
i do have problems with your comparison of jack to ben… dare i say WHAT? to even think that ben right now is more of a good guy then jack is insane. you talk about ben turning the wheel and making some big sacrifice. while i agree with you it was very painful for ben to do this but not because he was doing a favor for anyone on the island. ben turned the wheel for two reasons. one being to protect the island that which he loves most. and two he didn’t have a choice. he had fallen from jacobs graces and was being punished for his poor leadership. if it was up to him there is no doubt in my mind that ben would have had locke turn the wheel but it wasn’t up to him (hence him saying “are you happy now jacob”). and in order to get to turning the wheel to move the island ben knowingly killed keamy which lead to the explosion on the ship.
which brings me to my next point…jins death. while it seems that sun may blame jack (or at least he believes she does) saying that “it’s over. he’s gone” as the most heartless thing said on the show is insane. that goes to ben when after locke tells him that he has killed everyone on the freighter he responds with “so”. such lack of caring for human life. jack makes a tough decision in living jin behind (remember he was their elected leader). a decision that saves the oceanic 6. had they waited for jin they would have died in the explosion as well and we’d be talking about the island survivors more and not of the O6. jack made a decision in everyones best interest even though it was tough and hurtful. it was something needed to be done in order to save everyone else.
you also said that jack lied about going back for claire. as you recall the chooper was on it’s way back to the island. there was no ship to return to just the island and there jack would have lead a party to search for claire but before the chooper could arrive on the island it moved. not jacks’ fault. you can’t blame him for not having the oppurtunity to do something he said he would.
i think you have it wrong when you say it’s hate for jack (granted there are some true jack haters out there). i think the word you’re looking for here is pity. the jack of the future is someone we pity. jack never stopped being the live together die alone jack that we’ve known, but everyone else has kind of moved on. i don’t think jack has ruined lives. kate has it great right now because of jack (testifying to get her out of jail), hurley was doing well until the island started sending him visions of the dead, and sayid has widmore to blame for his pain. jack did what he said he would do and that was get everyone off the island. while the result has brought about problems he will do what he has to do in order to fix things for everyone. including sun (by bringing her back to the island where her husband is still alive).
but to call jack a villian is wrong. jack is a tragic hero who is constantly sacrificing himself for others. just because his bed side manner is rough doesn’t mean that jack is selfish. everything he has done has been for his friends and loved ones. jack will and has made the ultimate sacrifices and will continue to do so as the show goes on. but there is no way jack is a villian… he’s the shows hero he just so happnes be flawed and that’s what makes him real.
Key characters
| Short Name | Full Name | Episodes | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jack | Jack Shephard | 1.1, 1.5, 2.11, 1.11, 1.16, 1.20, 3.9, 3.22, 3.1, 4.10, 4.12, & 3” href=”/episodes/theres-no-place-home-parts-2-3/”>4.13 | 1377 |
Key episodes
| # | Title | Aired | Central character | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 4.13 | There’s No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3 | 5-30-2008 | Jack, John, Ben | 216 |
| 4.12 | There’s No Place Like Home, Part 1 | 5-15-2008 | Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Sun | 118 |
Word. Jack told everyone he’d get them off the island, and that is what he did. Refusing to budge off of a goal could be a detrimental character trait, but it is hardly villainous.
Didn’t bother reading the other post after reading this one…it is so obvious that Jack, in the writer’s eyes, is the tragic hero.
I also agree. I don’t think Jack is a saint; he is prideful, messed-up, and wrong about leaving the island, but he is doing what he believes to be best for everyone.
Jack lies about the island for confusing reasons, but ultimately the right ones. From that point, his life falls apart mentally in the flash-forwards, no doubt. His life is ruined, and he makes some bad calls (booze, drugs, leaving Kate). Guilt is a part of that. But, a flawed hero is what Jack is now. And even if he dies saving the island (definitely possible), he will be a flawed character to that day. This show is all about redemptions, but also about the constant struggle to maintain them.
In Lost, no characters are ultimately villains, or heroes, and that’s what’s so facinating about it all.
Daniel
Wow that was a great read. By the end of it I totally agreed with you. I am a fan of Jack, he is my favorite character on the show and if he does die in the series finale I would cry for a very long time but I would understand why it has to happen. I did not think his comment to Sun was cruel- it was a moment of chaos he had to say something to Sun to get her to calm down. Jack is the hero no matter what he does he will always be the hero. Is he flawed? Yes but so is everyone else on that island. I don’t think Jack has ever killed anyone (except the Marshall) but he had to do that to ease his suffering. Sawyer is a murderer as is Kate and Sayid. I do not think that Sun should be upset with Jack- the decision to let keamy’s heart stop was Ben’s- BEN KILLED JIN. I hope that Locke will tell this to Sun when he visits her like he visited all the other Oceanic 6. This is probably why she wants to work with Widmore, they both hate Ben. I think everyone is assuming she is talking about Jack when in fact it is Ben that she blames. +1 from me!
Jack resembles most the archetypical doctor-hero we see enough of in other shows, which is partly the reason many don’t like him. In many ways, he is the least deep and most familiar of the characters, and as such, his disbelief of the Island’s powers seems all the more convincing.
His jealousy and being a prick about it has been amply demonstrated, especially at a time when viewer sympathy for Sawyer has been at an all time high. Playing the hero has also gone to his head, which is one of the reasons his marriage unravelled.
I don’t mind his pill popping and boozing as it shows that he is finally understanding the Island’s significance which is bringing his own internal contradictions to a head. Even as a “tragic hero” I do think the original plot theory stands as he will need to seek redemption by going back to the Island.
also, you cant blame jack for leaving the island. How crazy does it sound to stay on an island if you really dont see its true power, besides the christian visions, how has the island even reached out to jack to make him have faith, that is why he and everyone “had” to leave, they were gettimg homesick
Ok, I didn’t think you were going to respond with a novel. I just don’t have enough time to respond to something like that. In summation, although I think you twisted my words a lot to prove your point, it was a good post regardless.
But, I think you missed the main point of my post. I was not trying to prove Jack was the ultimate villian, or anything like that. I just wanted to demonstrate how the writers are having Jack hit rock bottom, being hated by everyone, being hated by himself, and then making it all right in the end like the hero he is. Basically, I was trying to predict that in the series finale he would give up his life for the well-being of everyone else.
Despite what you might think based on your interpretation of my post, Jack is actually my favorite character. Seeing how he is in the future is upsetting. And I think my post on how he can redeem himself and make it all right again is exactly what a hero should do.
ceti after reading your comment i had to make a reply.
“Jack resembles most the archetypical doctor-hero we see enough of in other shows”, every show needs this type of flawed-hero, someone we can all relate to which is why other shows also have this type of character in them.
“His jealousy and being a prick about it” jealousy about what? prick about what? you don’t clarify. if it’s about the island well would you believe in a magic island in the middle of the ocean or in destiny and fate? i certainly wouldn’t. Jack represents the opinion of the majority. And if you were talking about jealousy to Sawyer, well he likes Kate and Sawyer is his rival, Sawyer is equally jealous in return.
“Playing the hero has also gone to his head, which is one of the reasons his marriage unravelled.” - if you see having the desire to help people as a flaw then yes; all this really demonstrates to me is how leaders and good people can be isolated and lonely.
I do agree he will go back to the island, but that’s fairly obvious.
Wow, this one is tough. I really like Jack, he’s one of my favorite characters. I liked Irocz’s theory, but I think I have to go with this one. I just like this one better. chevy, you seem you capture the character of Jack the way I see him.
I also agree with DanC and cornholiogringo’s comments.
+1 chevy, great job.
I’m with Shoegirl; I LIKE JACK; he is my favorite character. Personally, I don’t believe, we the viewers, all dislike Jack. I agree with whoever said, based on the facts Jack had on the island, his decisions were extremely logical! Let’s face it, who in their right mind would agree to stay on an island, where a group of people (the Others) are trying to kill you, or at least kidnap you and or steal your babies? In addition, every time you go out for a walk in the jungle, you may encounter a near death experience with Smokie! In addition, come to find out, if you happen to become pregnant on the island, YOU WILL DIE! (The death rate on this island is extremely high; I’d guess about 75% - not a place most people would enjoy living!) With very few exceptions, most of the Losties wanted to leave, including Kate, Juliet, Sawyer, Sayid, Desmond and even Daniel. If you remember, Sayid was also very determined to help Jack get everyone off the island.
So, if we, the viewers, are willing to blame Jack for “screwing everything up” we also must be willing to place the blame on Sayid, Ben, and Widmore.
Great comments from both chevy and irocz. +1
nice theory chevy. I’m not really sure that what you propose is that much different than iroc’s theory. Ultimately, Jack will be seen as the tragic hero of the story. Some people, the chevy camp, thinks he’s already there, and other people, the iroc camp, think he needs to fall a little further then be fully redeemed. seems like 6 one way half a dozen the other.
The writers presented us with our suspected hero in The Pilot, and slowly as the layers were peeled away we were shown that he is driven not by a need to help others any more than any human but by the need to feed his obsessions and ego. One obsession was to be a hero and a leader. In the end it was about getting everybody off the island. But he actually jumped on the chopper without a thought about his people on the beach. To be the real leader he would have done what Juliet did and oversaw the transfer of his people from the beach to the freighter. Basically in the end Jack didn’t have what it takes.He was every man for himself all the way baby !
I do like Jack but I don’t think his actions are meant to be defended. I think we have to accept what he is, not a villain, but one messed up tragic hero.
I agree. Jack’s the hero. He’s going through a bit of a bad patch at the moment, but all good heroes have their dark nights of the soul before they come good. It’s what makes them heroic.
When Frank suggested that someone else jump, Jack considered it. For all we know the island might be stopping Jack from doing stuff because “he has work to do”. Like when he was stopped from jumping from the bridge.
I think that the original theory is not dedicated to decide whether Jack is your favorite character or not. It’s just a point of view of things to come. It doesn’t matter if you like him or not.
I firmely support that Jack will be the tragical heroe of this story.
I agree, 1PRCS. Chevy, I think you and Irocz’s points of view are more similar than you realize. It’s possible that Jack made all of his decisions either selfishly or rationally, and most likely it’s some combination of the two. I think it was probably purposefully ambiguous, as the producers continue to show us that everyone has both selfish and selfless qualities. The boundary between good and evil isn’t so clear cut, and even if you think you are doing something for the greater good, it doesn’t mean you actually are. However, I dont think his original rationale for making those decisions matters that much in the end. In hindsight, Jack is feeling incredibly guilty about those decisions, even if he believed they were right at the time. He didn’t save all of the losties (among them his own sister), and probably feels responsible for Sawyer and Jin. He can’t tell Claire’s grieving mother that she has a living grandson. And the list goes on. Ultimately, he realizes that his decision to get the six off the island has both directly and indirectly resulted in a sequence of terrible events. Our hero is feeling pain and guilt, and having a tough time accepting that he was wrong (thus the boozing, etc), and seems to finally accept this reality in the final episode. So yes, he is the tragic hero. I think Irocz was saying this as well in a slightly different way, but that the main and really interesting point of that theory is that Jack must go back to right things, which may result in his self sacrifice.
Most people I know dislike Jack (and Kate) most intensely of all the characters. He could fit in any other show on TV right now with is model good looks, “prom king” ideal, and “normal” issues, and people resent him for being the center of attention and subject of way too many flashbacks.
However as leader, he does drive the drama and provides a point of relation with more mainstream viewers.
I don’t mind him, but really the fan base is quite divided on him. Maybe he becomes Jacob, who knows.
“the main and really interesting point of that theory is that Jack must go back to right things, which may result in his self sacrifice”
Well put squigglyfun. That is really what I was trying to get through in my post.
Ok, I have a little more time to respond.
For the record, I never called Jack a “villian” either. And I know Jack and Kate do not get married. I just though it would be easier to say he was a bad “husband” rather than saying he was a bad “significant other”. Thats kind of cheesy.
But, whether, or not you think he is a great guy or a bad guy, whether he is selfish or generous, whether he made the right decisions or the wrong decisions, whether he is a good father, bad father, good husband, bad husband, none of that matters.
The bottom line is “It Didn’t Work Out Very Well For Him In The Future.” Whatever decisions he made, regardless of how “right” they seemed at the time, were actually wrong. If they were the right decisions he would be trying to jump off bridges, popping pills, and growing “I just don’t give a damn anymore” beards.
That he is why he will go back. That is why he will make everything right again. And he will do all this even if it means sacrificing his life, which is exactly how I think it will happen. He would obviously rather be dead with a clear conscience, than alive with what he is living with right now. He did try to jump off a bridge.
I can’t see a happy ending for Jack. Kate is going to end up happy with Sawyer. Sun is going to end up happy with Jin. Claire is going to end up happy with Aaron. Isn’t that what we all want? They all deserve each other. And it is all going to be because of Jack.
I can’t say I disagree with you post chevy. Basically all you did was say that my title should be Jack: From Hero to Tragic Hero to Hero. I used the word goat because when things go wrong everyone blames the goat, which is exactly what everyone is doing to Jack. But, he is going to go from goat back to hero when it is all said and done.
I like the discussion. I don’t think Jack’s a villain, in fact, I really like how DanC put it: “In Lost, no characters are ultimately villains, or heroes, and that’s what’s so facinating about it all.”
I think what really has irritated me about Jack is his ego and pride that have driven him this season. I hope that him hitting bottom and trying to rectify his decisions come from a place of him recognizing how much his pride and ego took over to an extreme as he tried to control everything and take responsibility for everyone. For instance, in reference to Sayid and Desmond being on the chopper, “It was my call, I put them on there…” I about wanted to scream. (Could Sayid or Desmond not make their own decisions or choices?)
What he failed to see while on the island has more to do with some of the fate issues and “course correction” issues that have been so obvious with other people’s storylines. He can not let go of control or accept that sometimes bad things happen and yet even in them, good can come. (Some of the “sacrificial” deaths that Iroc alluded to in his post.) And obviously this is also at the crux of the Locke-Jack struggle, too.
In the pilot he addressed the “5 seconds of fear” that he” allowed” himself in the operating room one time. His ego is so huge, yet so fragile. I would really like to see that his despair in the flash forwards comes from a place of recognizing that he can’t control everything and everyone as much as he seems to want to. Perhaps he can deal with his pride, recognizing that he will make mistakes and that the real failure comes when you can’t admit it.
Anyway, if he dies because of this recognition, so be it. If he lives but can’t own the reasons or weaknesses he masks behind his control-issues and ego, then too bad.
Plus, don’t forget that Jack’s a surgeon, and surgery is a damn tough job. Usually, surgeons are pretty emotionless (know what I’m talkin bout, my father is one, too :-)). So guys, please go easy on Jack!!!
It became quite clear that the freighter was there with bad intentions. Since the end of season 3 the Losties have been trying to get off the island. They finally have their chance so they do. End of season 4 with the bomb on the freighter, Ben moving the island, raft shifts to the freighter, etc, it was everyone for themselves to get off. Jack got them off. They HAD to lie to protect the people on the island. I don’t think that Jack’s intentions were bad, just more along the lines that every decision had dire consequences. We don’t everything that happened in the flash forwards yet to know why Jack was a wreck. Maybe he realized that Ben was right and he had nothing to go back to, or when Locke visited him, he found out some terrible news. It is obvious that Jack is hero of the show, in the end he will be the “Leader” the island is looking for.