(Group 1: “Not in Portland”): “We Think You’re Special, Dr. Burke”
+9 11 Votes
Rate it:
By jazprof
- (Group 1: “Not in Portland”): “We Think You’re Special, Dr. Burke”
- Created: Jan 3, 2008
- Last updated: Aug 13, 2008
- After episode: 3.22: Through The Looking Glass
- Status: Current
- Flag this theory:
That set up and the emotional state Juliet is in after she talks to Richard makes me think that the stage was being set for her to direct her special gift (but not in a controlled or knowing way) against her husband.
— jazprof
There are three related things I noticed about this episode: One is that the continued reference to Carrie, plus the conversation between Juliet and Richard and then Edmund Burke getting hit by the bus all convince me that what is special about Juliet is not her work on fertility but the kind of power that Walt also has. Second is that a very strong contrast between men and women is drawn in the present day story with women represented as much stronger and more capable of cold-blooded violence. And third is that I think there’s a Benipulation going on in both the present and flashback stories.
Starting with the Juliet is “special” idea—We know that “Carrie” is her favourite book and it’s shown again on Rachel’s bedside table. In “Left Behind” there is a shot of Juliet with mud on her face that is very similar to one of the movie stills of Carrie with blood on her face. The conversation she has with Richard about her husband seems designed to get her thinking of some way he could be dealt with. Finally if there is some kind of Benipulation involved in Rachel’s pregnancy (which is suggested by Ethan leaving the apartment building as Juliet enters it)—that manipulation has the result of allowing Juliet to think about taking the Mittelos job and sets her husband up as what stands in her way of taking the job and as the person wanting to control her and her sister for profit. That set up and the emotional state Juliet is in after she talks to Richard makes me think that the stage was being set for her to direct her special gift (but not in a controlled or knowing way) against her husband.
Some of that is also suggested by the way in which Ben and Edmund Burke are both paralleled and contrasted. Physically they look somewhat alike. Juliet “has history” with both of them. The contrast between the two is suggested by who the real life Edmund Burke was—an advocate of free market and trade, supporter of the American Revolution, but a very vocal critic of the French Revolution. I’d go with associating Ben with the last of those—the purge very reminiscent of the Reign of Terror. So I’d connect Lost’s Edmund Burke with the corporate groups and Dharma. If Ben’s manipulation served to get Juliet to the island it was also a way to get rid of his rival who was trying to get her tied up to Widmore.
If all the above is true then one thing that makes Juliet both a weapon and unconscious of her own ability is how emotional she is. As she leaves the interview with Richard (who says, interestingly that he is looking for leaders), she says she’s not a leader, she’s a mess. But present day Juliet seems straightened out. (Heh, see I’m developing a straight/curly hair theory for the women to go along with the bearded/clean-shaven one for the guys.) It’s clear in most of the episodes that present day Juliet is really tough. But in this episode all the women seem exceptionally tough in contrast to the guys. And by the end of the episode Juliet has become a cold-blooded killer. Which led me back to Prof’s theory on Ben as “King of the Cold-Blooded Killers”: http://lost-theories.com/theories/2007/may/16/king-cold-blooded-killers/ I won’t go over that whole theory, but one interesting connection to what I’m saying is that the example of cold-blooded killers off the island that Prof mentions are both female—Kate and Ana-Lucia. And the main distinction he’s making in the theory is between the kind of emotional, impulsive killing (which Ben seems to want to get Locke to do in killing his father) and the more rational killer—much more deadly & less easy to manipulate. So Ben of course would prefer the former. It also makes me wonder about an interpretation of a line from “Left Behind” in which Juliet tells Kate that she broke Jack’s heart—is Juliet doing the same kind of emotional prompting to Kate that the Ben plot was doing to her in the flashback?
If Ben wants hot-blooded reactions—it does seem to me that something or someone else is pulling in the opposite direction (Sawyer for example I think has become a cold-blooded killer by end S3.) And, yeah, the women seem to be especially good at the rational, controlled response in this ep—a nice gender inversion. Some details:
1) In the “Wookie Prisoner Gag” that Aldo falls for—Alex is Luke, Kate is Han and Sawyer is Chewie, Karl is Princess Leia.
2) Sawyer calls Alex, Sheena—the name he also uses for Kate, Alex talks back to him in the same way that Kate does. (“This a hobby of yours, Underdog….Yep, that and basket-weaving. Want one?”)
3) Kate’s willing to shoot Aldo’s kneecap—Sawyer thinks it was a con—it clearly isn’t.
4) Sawyer is mesmerized by the Room 23 video, Kate and Alex remain in control.
5) Tom introduces himself to Jack and is afraid of blood.
6) Ben wants to talk to Jack as one gentleman to another.
7) Pickett wants to kill Sawyer for hot-blooded reasons.
8) Juliet and Sawyer exchange looks after she cold-bloodedly kills Pickett—a very similar exchange happens after he kills Tom. They’ve become alike.
Last point is about the possible Benipulation in the present—How is it that he wakes up out of the surgery? Who was administering the anesthesia? And notice what he says to Jack about Jack’s plan (nicking Ben’s kidney—notice the Locke connection): “I should have foreseen it.” Hmmm, oh really, Br’er Linus?
I have no idea how that would really work or whether Juliet would have to be in on it, but let’s suppose that Ben’s waking up is planned—what does it accomplish? The offer of going home to Juliet and Juliet telling Jack about it makes them allies. It keeps Sawyer and Kate alive (important if Kate is supposed to be pregnant). And it helps him regain control if/when Jack pulls the kind of stunt he did.
Well there’s lots more to talk about (I didn’t even get into the 70 year old womb stuff). I did an analysis of the video in a separate thread if you want to take a look (be sure to put your goggles on.): http://lost-theories.com/theories/2007/dec/29/room-23-video/
Key characters
| Short Name | Full Name | Episodes | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ben | Benjamin Linus | 3.20, 4.9, & 3” href=”/episodes/theres-no-place-home-parts-2-3/”>4.13 | 1714 |
| Jack | Jack Shephard | 1.1, 1.5, 2.11, 1.11, 1.16, 1.20, 3.9, 3.22, 3.1, 4.10, 4.12, & 3” href=”/episodes/theres-no-place-home-parts-2-3/”>4.13 | 1451 |
| Juliet | Juliet Burke | 3.7, 3.16, 4.6 | 341 |
| Kate | Katherine “Kate” Austen | 3.6, 1.2, 1.3, 2.9, 1.12, 1.16, 1.22, 3.15, 4.4, 4.12 | 711 |
| Sawyer | James “Sawyer” Ford | 3.4, 2.3, 2.6, 2.13, 1.16, 3.10 | 451 |
Key episodes
| # | Title | Aired | Central character | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 3.7 | Not In Portland | 2-7-2007 | Juliet | 146 |
Jaz, first off, I’m with you on the Juliette—Carrie idea. I think she does not know about and/or has hidden and been in denial of her abilities, which were of no surprise to Richard.
But I haven’t read all of this yet. If I’m butting in here I apologize. I do have a question. It was my understanding that people were to sign up for “group one” so does that mean only those who had done so should be participating on this thread? I have never been sure about that, sorry if that sounds like a stupid question.
Jaz, I agree with much of what you say but I disagree with you in regard to Juliette having special abilities akin to Walt. The Benipulation of Juliette in both the past and the present is undeniable. Her ex-husband, in my opinion, was killed not through some “special powers” of Juliette, but through the process of Benipulation. Edmund Burke would have prevented Juliette from taking a job and carrying on her work privately. He was ready to publish her research and win a Nobel Prize. He threatened her. Ben, and his puppet Richard, understood that Burke had to go in order for them to obtain the best fertility researcher in the world.
The weakness in your argument for Juliette having special powers akin to Walt is simply this: you’re working on the premise that her comment about Burke being hit by a bus actually led to him getting his by a bus. This would be convincing IF there were any other incidents in which Juliette’s thoughts or comments directly affected the future. As far a we know, this is not the case. Moreover, we see in LOST PIECES that Juliette is terrified of Walt’s abilities. Perhaps she would not be so terrified if she had these powers herself. One last point that must be made is that Richard, in his conversation with Locke, speaks of how Ben has been wasting their time with fertility stuff long enough. Thus we KNOW that Ben’s priority if fertility and that he would ensure that the best fertility researchers in the world would be on the island.
I like your thoughts on the “women in control” in that episode as well. This seems to be a rarity on Lost as most of the time the women seem irrational, emotionally driven, and a bit promiscuous! I must, however, disagree again in regard to Juliette being “in control” now. I see Juliette as being LOYAL to men. She’s loyal to her ex-husband even though he’s a prick (She even turned the light off in the hospital so that he could have sex with the new intern). She’s loyal to Ben even though she knows he will never let her off of the island. She’s loyal to Jack, once she’s in the Lostie camp. This loyalty is the result of her own specific behavioral patterns as well as the manipulation of the men in her life.
Yeah, I’m not going with the Juliet having powers thing. Sorry, but not for me. I think the reason she so adamantly stated Carrie was her favourite book was because it was clearly a book her sister liked. She misses her sister, the book reminds her of her, hence it’s one of her favourites. Same reason why Juliet played ‘Downtown’ in A Tale Of Two Cities to cheer herself up (it was the song that was playing in the car when Juliet saw her sister for the last time).
That being that, I feel like you missed the meat of the matter concerning what really happened to Edmund Burke and how much of a pawn Juliet was in being manipulated to the Island. You were right to point out Ethan was a clear signal of this working behind the scenes.
On a positive note, I thought your opening ‘statement of intent’ was a sign of really confident writing here and your piece remained very focused and concise. In short, I thought it was terrific writing. I may disagree with it in the main, but that doesn’t stop you potentially being right and me being wrong when the whole thing comes out in the wash.
+1
ozzig—no sign up necessary. I think the purpose of assigning these posts a name “Group 1” was for easy identification, but anyone can participate. Please jump in :-)
CC (great name) and AC—yeah, the evidence for the claim that Juliet has powers, as far as plot goes, is weak, I agree—so the whole thing could be a mislead. For me the evidence is mostly symbolic, but it’s not just the book showing up in the two episodes; it’s also the muddy face Juliet-Carrie resemblance, and the use of the word “special”—because the episode which focuses on Walt’s potential ability is titled “Special.”—Sorry, I’m just realizing I didn’t mention that specific connection. Then the one other thing is not just that Juliet says that the only way to get rid of her husband is to have him hit by a bus—it is that Richard seemed to lead her to say that. Of course, another explanation of that could be that he leads her to say it, then arranges for it to happen, so it’s all designed to play on her guilt.
CC—I don’t think what Richard says to Locke means we know Ben’s intent—it suggests it, but Ben’s so much about hiding his intent that I’m just not sure.
AC—did you have an idea about what Ethan was doing there? My thought was that he gave Rachel something that allowed the pregnancy so it wasn’t about what Juliet was doing at all.
kat—I’m in agreement with you regarding Juliet. I think she’s primarily doing whatever she thinks necessary to advance her own cause (whatever that is).
And so far you’ve all missed the most important part :-) You know the straight/curly hair—clean-shaven/bearded connection :-)
“CC—I don’t think what Richard says to Locke means we know Ben’s intent—it suggests it, but Ben’s so much about hiding his intent that I’m just not sure.”
That’s a good point. If only these characters always knew the truth and spoke the truth!
I think your theory is plausible, but having watched that episode again last night with the wife, I’m convinced that the bus was driven by Ethan!
The real question my wife and I have is this — In watching that scene one must take notice of where the bus is stopped prior to Juliette running into Edmund. IF that particular bus is the same bus that runs him over, how in the world was it traveling that fast??? In light of that, perhaps Juliette just might be “special.”
“Gosh… why can’t you just solve all the problems for us! ”
ummm, oooo, wait, wait, I know the answer to that one…pick me, pick me :-)
cc—both interesting possibilities re: the bus. Now I want to go back and watch it again.
Jaz, Great post and I like the theory that Juliet is like Walt. +1
I’m not buying the Juliette ‘having powers’ thing either, but I do like where you’re going with some of the other stuff.
The idea about Carrie also I feel is incorrect— see AngeloComet’s comments above. She clearly is reminiscing back to a day when life was good, when she had control— back when she was with her sister.
But I like your formulation and you could be right.
(Another stupid reason, by the way, why I think you’d be wrong— it’s too darn complicated to be explained! I don’t think the writers want to get involved in plot-lines that leave too many people thinking, “huh?! I don’t get it!”. Anyway, this is a gripe I have with many threads of this sort, so nothing personal. And I could be dead wrong!)
Well done, jaz. I, too, have wondered whether or not the term “special” applied to Juliet meant “Walt” special. Not enough evidence to say for certain, but I think we have to be open to that possibility. I think the strength of the notion is not just symbolic, but thematic. Meaningful coincidences are happening constantly on the show, so why couldn’t the bus accident be another one?
On the DVD, Michael Emerson is interviewed and says that he does not understand why people say that he is the most terrifying chracter on the show (or something like that). In his opinion Juliet is. And I have to agree with him…
A VERY interesting take on the known facts. In my business this is what we would call “reasonable doubt.” I personally define that as an alternate reasonable theory that fits all the known facts.
That doesn’t mean I agree with it, though.
First, I much prefer the idea that Mittelos killed Juliet’s ex. It makes them seem darker, more determined, completely amoral. We have this one event and now have a question: does it illuminate Juliet’s character? Or Richard’s?
I”ve been thinking all along that the Carrie references refer to Walt, and, perhaps, to something about the island, and the ultimate mystery, rather than to Juliet specifically.
Oops. Connection about to go. More later.
OK, I’m back.
I’m seeing this more and more, the idea that Ben is master of time and space, and I just cannot get on board with it. Many theories lately assign bad motives to Ben. Fine. But then we are asked to believe that Ben can somehow anticipate EVERY SINGLE RANDOM EVENT, including people doing odd or surprising things, all with perfect knowledge, and perfect ability to manipulate.
Sorry, but I prefer my bad guys flawed and human and capable of error. There is no fun watching a game against a competitor who cannot, by definition, be beaten.
Q—I definitely agree about how I like my bad guys. Were you objecting to the FB manipulation I proposed, the present day one, or both though when you said that I see Ben anticipating every single event?
lab—I found Juliet completly chilling in the beginning of this episode when she tells someone to kill Kate and Sawyer if necessary. And I did really find the way the women were both stronger and scarier in this episode sort of reflects how I think about some of the female characters generally (Kate, Sun, Rousseau, for instance).
I think the Carrie—Juliet comparison has merit. Both characters were doormats to other people, both were constantly controlled by others, both were treated unfairly, both were good at heart but repressing a lot of hostility. Carrie’s repressed hostility came out sporadically in an uncontrolled manner and she didn’t know she was doing it, until she was finally told about herself (hopefully I;m remembering correctly) at which time she was able to consciously direct it. The same could have applied to Juliette, and she could have learned about herself on the island. She also could have been so horrified that she purposely changed herself, rid herself of emotions as much as possible, dissociating herself. She would be repulsed by someone like Walt who reminded her of the monster she was trying not to be. If she does have these abilities, she is very dangerous, willingly or not.
Jazzie, Very nice observations as usual! +1
I had wondered if Juliette has some similar abilities along the lines of Walt, but in a far less degree. I do believe that Ben, Alpert and Ethan set up the entire scenario, including having Burke killed, but your idea is plausible and thought worthy.
I am on board with you about Ben’s surgery, entirely. I doubt it was an accident that he awoke during the procedure. It was all part of his master plan!
CC, I take issue with your comment about “the women” on “the island” being promiscuous!!! I certainly haven’t seen anything to suggest that, and I sincerely doubt anyone other than you has, with the exception of “the moral majority” of course!
Oh, I missed the promiscuous part! The only promiiscuous person I noticed was Sawyer.
I’m with you on that, Ozzig! lol
Me thinks if CC continues to make inappropriate “sexist” comments, somebody is gonna tear him “a new one”! Line forms behind me!
Jaz, Ethan’s presence to me was a background suggestion that Island-forces were at work off-Island. Of course, Ethan’s presence also helped create that few minutes of fooling the audience into thinking they were still on the Island before the ‘Miami reveal’.
What was Ethan doing with Rachel? I can suggest two things.
That number one, as a doctor, he was conducting a medical examination to determine Rachel’s condition. How bad was her cancer? How unlikely could it be that she’d get pregnant? Since she’s already using Juliet’s drugs, are there any side-effects? Is she pregnant already? Using the guise of a doctor, I put him there basically on a fact-finding, researcher level before Mittelos made a move on Juliet.
My number two suggestion is the out-of-the-park, anything goes idea. That Ethan was making a bargain with Rachel (we’ll cure your cancer if you tell your sister you’re pregnant). Or that Ethan did something that made Rachel pregnant/made her cancer go away (acting on behalf of Jacob!?).
For the record, I’ll keep it simple and lean towards the first option.
Looking at ccumatt’s first comment in this thread I can’t help parallelling Juliette to Locke. It’s true, she’s been loyal to her husband no matter how badly he treated her. Just like Locke to Cooper. Hm…
ozz, dabiat: It was a joke! Sawyer is undoubtedly the “island whore.” But let’s keep in mind that Kate acts like a teenage girl, Ana Lucia was whoring herself out for a gun, Sun carried on an affair and according to missing pieces, may have had relations with Michael, and Juliette, well, she’s not promiscuous but her breasts hang out more than any other woman on the show.
Before you go calling me “sexist,” you’d better realize how the producers cast the women on the show…The only woman I would trust and actually like is Rose. Claire seems nice, but she cannot deal with any situation reasonably. She is always acting on emotions. We could go on down the line from Kate to Juliet but I find it pointless…if anyone’s sexist, or putting women in a negative light, it’s the writers and producers, no me!
cc, I think you were being teased….however, I do disagree with your assessment BUT I’m not going to go there.
CC, The point is, that those are your views of how the writers and producers are casting and portraying the women on the show and not anyone elses. Might be a good idea to keep those slanted views to yourself! Just a suggestion!
Some of the ladies on this site might be tempted to whisper very naughty things in your ear, before they gauge your eyes out with a dull instrument! LOL
ozz: why not go there! My wife and I are in constant conversation about how television shows/movies cast both MEN and WOMEN in stereotypical roles that more often than not do not reflect reality. This should not be a major surprise to anyone since tv/movies are NOT reality. I think it is quite healthy to engage in conversation regarding gender roles in the media.
Consider sitcoms such as According to Jim, Everyone Loves, Raymond, etc. The males in these shows are cast as morons who think with the wrong brain, have no consideration for the emotional needs of their lovers, and simply play the “funny idiot” role. The females on these sitcoms, meanwhile, are delicate emotional creatures who contrarily always know the solution and know what’s best.
In Lost, many characters on the show, both men and women, have questionable moral behavior (whether one uses the moral law of fundamentalist Christianity or the moral obligation of Atheism). Here are some examples - Sawyer: cold-blooded killer, concerned for his own survival and well being more than the sake of others, con-man, male whore. Kate - cold-blooded killer, also concerned only about herself (her actions led to her childhood friend’s death). Most would agree that this list would also contain Ana Lucia (cold-blooded killer), Ben (mass murderer), Juliet (cold-blooded killer), and many others. Thus I’ve got nothing against the “women” of Lost, but am simply pointing out the fact that they fit the tv/movie stereotypical mold (unfortunately).
CC, I am TRYING to behave myself, why are you trying to lead me astray?
Ozzig, He’s all yours! I rest my case!
CC—I disagree with your assessment of the female chracters (and Sawyer)—I think they’re much more morally mixed than that. But I see that you think this is not the way women are, but the way they are being represented. I like discussions like that myself. OK—Ana Lucia for instance—I think the way I read her having sex with Sawyer is that she is an extremely screwed up person who seems very tough but is actually extremely fearful—she will use any kind of manipulation to protect herself and she saw the kind of manipulation which would work with Sawyer.
After figgyfox? You’ve got to be kidding me. Then he’ll be calling ME promiscuous.
Um, cc, you got any kind of ear infections?
Well, Ozzig should he stick around long enough and get and ear full of me, I guarantee you, it will be me, he has issues with! And, I bet it will turn him on, too! Muaaahaaaaa!
I think the Carrie part in Juliet does not have to do with special powers but instead with her ability to be disturbingly calm, unemotional, when chaotic or surprising events are happening around her. However, in other occasions, when things are not so cahotic, she seems to show emotions more easily. I find her even a bit shy when she goes for the presentation at Mittelos.
The way she reacts when being attacked by Kate is also a bit surprising, she certainly had some type of training on fighting techniques.