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Nice little Yoda quote Jaz ” Do or do not…there is no try” I like where you are headed with this, Like Sun trying to find her ring. I thought as well that was when she had finally given up hope that they were dead. and the ring was her physical connection to Jin. Good stuff jaz you never dissapoint

Quite the opposite of Rose, right? She wears Bernard’s ring all the time… and she’s sure Bernard is alright all the time.

Good stuff Jaz. The thing that most occured to me watching this was right at the beginning. It was Jin’s flower that whatshisname gave to Sun in the hotel. I think this could be construed as a sign they were meant to be together and would find their way together.

It also reminded me of the saying ‘If you love someone, set them free’ which is sort of what Sun did. She had to let Jin leave on the raft so he could regain his honour in order to come back to her. He had symbolically lost his way but was never really lost to her.

I like the idea of “trying” implying giving up. Implicit in the word “try” is the idea that it may fail. If you let things happen, it doesn’t mean you have given up in any respect— you are simply letting life happen and run its course.

Does this theme apply on a much grander scale? Jack is TRYING to get rescued. Locke seems to keep insisting that they don’t try. And maybe that’s what Locke knows that the rest do not: fighting against the island to get “rescued” only will result in failure, desperation, and frustration. After all, as the film strip in Room 23 says, “We are the cause of our own suffering.” And it sounds corny, but perhaps what Locke is preaching is letting the island rescue you.

good comments everyone, thanks…

Jedi—din’t need to tell you did I, ;-)

DocOcc—Hey, Welcome Back, Man! And yeah…that’s true about Rose—I think she gets it even better than Locke does.

mrs—nice symbolism with the flower

BT—yeah that’s exactly it I think.

I don’t think Locke wants to be rescued at all, although it would be debatable what would Locke do if he felt like the Island itself was “rescuing” them.

I find interesting Jin’s conversation with his friend. Jin doesn’t believe in fate, it seems, but he does in tradition. Fate wins, tradition loses. His stubborn attempt at comply with tradition —the husband brings the money home—, instead of accepting fate —Sun loving him for what he is, not for what he might be— becomes his biggest failure. And, eventually, brings him to the Island.

Following jazprof’s excellent suggestions, Jin fails by trying to be what he thinks he must be, and by becoming a different man from the one Sun fell in love with. He shouldn’t have tried, he sort of “gave up” on what he had.

Also, it’s curious how Jin’s job interview mirrors Desmond’s. For Desmond, everything seems to be alright until the McClucheon scene. Jin is treated really bad by his interviewer, but gets the job.

Great work Jazz, as always an excellent insight into the episode, for those of you who use tv links etc. I have just purchased (for my wife of course) season 1 2 and 3…….. yeas and 3 (replicas) from ebay and I have to say they are excellent in every way - up to 8 episode per disk all perfect in appearence. makes it so much easier to watch and only cost me 25 quid……………….spot on

kat: I’m the Moon here. Just sending back the light that comes to me. ;-)

jaz: Thanks for your welcome, my co-Boone ;-)

My last comment reads weird… it seems I said Jin followed jazprof’s suggestions… Geez, I forgot my English…

awwww, co-Boone—a reciprocal gift. (gee, I never made that connection—Boone was a gift to the island “D’Oh…head-slap). It does have an unfortunate resemblance to “ka-boom” though…lol.

co-Boone fall down, go ka-boom.

Yeah that is Jin’s mistake isn’t it—putting himself in that traditional role. As a generalization about S1-3, it seems like one focus has been seeing variations on traditional male roles as mistakes for the male characters.

Well, this episode has another take against tradition, both from Sun’s and Jae’s fronts. Again, parent issues —they are both young and detached from the roles their parents assign to them.

Sun is deceived. She seems to have finally accepted tradition is not such a bad thing —she likes Jae. Again, fate wins. But with a twist. “Destiny book” said “love will look… orange”. Jin looks at the girl in an orange dress… and then finds love.

Side comment: Jin seems to understand Eko pretty well, for a Korean man who never studied English, doesn’t he?

did you think there was a connection to “love will look orange” and Michael’s shirt color too…(well Michael did say Jin was his friend ahem but what I meant was Michael’s love for Walt—don’t know if this means anything but in Western culture “orange” usually stands for jealousy).

And Jin’s tie (still with the tag on it ) somehow seemed connected to Jack buying the replacement ring—both not trusting to fate.

Don’t know about “orange = love”, I’m afraid. Good catch about Jin’s tie, fits with his character as is presented in the flashback.

Oh, and about your comment on Goodwin’s body. No burial at sea for Ethan, either. Let’s see… Goodwin fails on his mission, he is discovered and killed by Ana Lucia. No “other” checking what happened to him is weird, so… should we assume they knew Goodwin failed, and just let his body there because of the failure?

Ethan falls in the same pattern: discovered and killed. However, he succeeded in his task of abducting Claire. The subsequent failure of the plan was not to be charged upon him. Of course, he was buried on ground —not on the beach, at that— so maybe it was difficult for “them” to find his body… or maybe “they” did find him and the Losties didn’t notice. I’m thinking about Sri Lanka’s video here: the dead must be recovered for genetic thingamabobity —my messmory is at full power right now.

The girl Sun kills succeeds in her task of getting hold of the boat. No failure there. Is that the reason why she deserves an honorable burial?

But why should Juliet lie to Ben, too? She left him a recorded message… You may say Juliet does not seem to be too on Ben’s side, right, but what Ben wanted was get hold of any pregnant Lostie. If Juliet just wanted to lie to Sun, the recorded message would have said “she’s not pregnant”. If she wanted to lie to Ben too… well, I think the recorded message would say “she’s not pregnant”, too. Fuzzy logic: Sun being pregnant would play on Ben’s side, because it gives him a strong point to carry on with his investigations. If Juliet played on Richard’s team —or on her own team, but you know the enemies of my enemies…— why should she give him hope?

Anyway, you have a point on saying there seems Colleen’s death doesn’t matter to anyone. And you are right, that is so odd.

BTW, jazzie, it seems dark orange can mean “deceit and distrust.” I’m partially colour-blind, so I can’t say, but… was Michael’s T-shirt dark orange? Would be so fitting, if it were…

… if it was, even. D’oh!

Docoone—I think Ethan may be a special case ‘cause I think there was a manipulation either by Ben or some other force to get Ethan killed. I think Ben wanted Claire returned, but doesn’t want the Others to know that so present Ethan’s actions to get her back as some kind of rogue move.

kat—that is a very interesting tangent. (No need to apologize—tangents are the best!) I hope it is returned to. It does seem to fit with a general misperception of Sun—people buy into this mask of Asian submissive female, whereas she often shows herself to be Daddy’s girl and certainly a more dangerous person than Jin.

And Juliet killed Colleen’s husband right? I know there was the trial—but I always wondered about the reality of that. Meaning Juliet’s got something coming her way as well?

Occ—I though kat meant that Juliet lied about the timing of Sun’s pregnancy not whether she actually was or not. But the lying to Ben too—a two for one deal—that often seems to be the case with these manipulations. Why should she give him hope?—Maybe Juliet wanted to bring about the confrontation hoping that if she then told the Losties about it she could aid them in defeating Ben?

oh and “if it were” is right (subjunctive)

Right, jaz… I think Juliet wanted the beach invasion to take place and saying Sun had conceived on the island was, to her, the best way to make that happen. So… her comments to Ben weren’t necessarily honest.

Great post, jaz, and great discussion. There’s a song on the Pilothouse website called “No Way Out” that speaks to some of these themes of “trying=giving up”. Lao Tzu teaches that striving amounts to inaction while submission to the “the Way” amounts to action. Ceasing to try is not the same as ceasing to act. It’s merely allowing one’s actions to be guided by something else other than a self-centered (and perhaps obsessive) fear. We all know that panic is a bad thing… it causes a person to make their situation worse… it causes a person to make happen the very thing they think they’ll avoid by their actions.

Jack, for example, feared he’d lose Kate so he refused to take her on some dangerous excursions and lied to her about which backpack he put the dynamite in. He thought this was the action that would ensure she’d continue to be with him. However, it was this same behavior that pushed her away and ultimately caused him to lose her.

Sawyer feared he’d never have relief from his grief and guilt. So he obsessively dived into the grifter sup-culture in order to seek vengeance. He thought this was the action that would ensure he’d eventually find peace. However, it was this same behavior that ultimately caused him to become the thing he hated, the worst fate to befall a man already supersaturated in guilt.

This is what fear does. It turns us into what we fight. It causes to happen the thing we think we’re acting to avoid.

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate… leads to suffering.

Do, or do not. There is no try.

Damn, that Yoda really knew what he was talking about!

and the master manipulator of fear is Ben…I think it was on lostinTN’s post about the Odyssey the other day that I was thinking Ben is like Circe—turning them all to their basest animal instincts.

Excellent thoughts Prof—like them I do—(hmmm do you think Yoda was based on Lao Tzu?)—was looking something up about koans and found another interesting connection—there’s a collection of them called “The Gateless Gate”—not saying that has a direct connection—it just makes me think that the hotel’s name “The Seoul Gateway”—might be indicative of the wrong way to go. And in fact Sun and Jin meet be leaving it behind—no barriers to try and pass, no gates to strive to get through. I also keep coming back to the suicide theme as giving up self idea.

she bobs, she weaves, she tangents, she shoots, she scores…the crowd goes wild

Ley lines—That is a really interesting idea!

Oedipus—a great example of someone trying to avoid something and therefore bringing it about. I’m sure the writers have Greek mythology in mind in the whole killing of fathers ‘cause it comes up so often there. And one of the important patricides I’m just thinking is Zeus killing Chronos—murdering time. (Also a phrase brought up in Through the Looking Glass in which the Mad Hatter is accused of killing time.)

Flashforwards… Flashbacks to present

Ok, about Juliet’s message to Ben. It seems genuine to me. At least, she gave him the same information she already gave Sun. It was a double-edged lie? Maybe. You may say the “I hate you” afterthought was a nice touch to make Ben believe Juliet’s lie.

But Ben would want to abduct Sun no matter where her baby was conceived. If the DOC was pre-crash, they could get useful information by checking what could be different. Even if that mean waiting until the critical moment to be able to check that. So the only piece of information that would trigger the confrontation was “Kwon is pregnant.” There is no need for the rest of the message to be a lie, and we know Sun is pregnant, so… maybe she was just telling the truth, but for her own reasons.

Maybe Juliet is Ben’s mirror: Ben-ipulation uses lies as tools, Juli-pulation uses truth. ;-)

Oh, and kat, you comment about the Island being some kind of umbilicus mundi is so “Foucault’s Pendulum”… :-)

Will check that, kat. Anyway, I was talking about Umberto Eco’s “Foucault’s Pendulum” book. It’s all about finding the “umbilicus mundi”, the ultimate crossroad of all the “power-lines” on Earth…

Bi-locates… Mono-locates back

Ok, checked. Interesting theory, and comments. If you don’t mind, I’ll continue here (although I “plused” your theory). You think Juliet lied to Sun, but… where’s the money? She already told her she were going to die if that was the case. I don’t think Juliet has nothing to win by telling Sun her DOC was during her stay on the Island. Is she counting on Sun to think “but I will be different than the other 9 women who died”? Hard chance. On the other hand, the story about sperm count being unusually high on the Island sounds a bit far-fetched. It may be true, however. We will have to wait until we discover whether she was telling the truth or not about that.

But if Juliet had said the DOC was before the Island… wouldn’t it be useful? She could try and convince Sun to help them to discover what was wrong with babies conceived on the Island. She could even tell her about Kate and Sawyer —Jack could even confirm that— and Sun would be the key for Kate’s salvation… That would help her. Once Sun goes aboard, Juliet could wash her hands and proceed with Ben’s plan… or with her plan of getting out of the Island —yes, the sub has been blown, but surely Juliet knows about Desmond’s boat?

I didn’t mean to imply that Ben wouldn’t have wanted Sun if she conceived off the island. But Sun is definitely more valuable to Ben if she’d conceived on the island. Just like Kate is valuable for that same reason. I think Juliet just told Ben what he wanted to hear.

I think the reason she lied to Sun (if, in fact, she lied) is because she knew it was more important to Sun for her child to be Jin’s rather than for her survival to be assured. Juliet was already going to lie to Ben about it. Might as well do Sun a favor and tell her the same. And anyway, if Sun WAS ever captured then she would tell Ben the same story Juliet did. Insurance.

Hey completely forgot the other search going on which is Michael searching for Walt—eventually trying so hard that he kills innocent people—that must indicate that in the end he’s going to lose Walt somehow.

Jazzie: trying not to look too far ahead to what we know Michael does, in this episode, I can’t really fault him for running off and searching for his son. He’s kind of in a no win situation.

I’m struggling to see the connection to how he’s going to lose Walt in the end - based on his “trying so hard.” I always thought Mike would lose him because he wouldn’t let Walt reach his potential, like Locke allows him to.

Changing gears. Jin’s friend says love will be “orange” and its because of his checking out the girl in the orange dress (clever ruse by the writers) that Jin runs into Sun (the sun also being orange).

I say Jin wins most noble and honorable guy on the island -do you agree? I loved it when he stuffed his gloves and hat in his boss’ face. Go Chewy!

Forgot: one of the best lines in the show…Sawyer:

“I think they’re gonna eat us.”

Stip, I didn’t mean to fault him for going after Walt in this episode—so I guess I am looking ahead. That is if we take that as a general message then Michael’s desperation to find Walt which leads him to do such monstrous things somehow that’s going to rob him of the very thing he was willing to kill innocent people for (that seems to make narrative sense to me anyway)—not sure how it will happen—maybe not literally but an estrangement.

I agree about Jin—he makes such a transformation, from the guy handcuffed to the plane—seemingly controlling of his wife and hostile to everyone else—then that same care that was so focussed on Sun starts to generalize itself to everyone else. I remember when he gets handcuffed to the plane and someone says it’s dangerous for him to be out in the sun for too long—he really needed to get away from Sun for awhile.

I thought that’s why the episode was named as such. It was all a buildup to show how Jin & Sun found each other once and that they will do so again. The lost ring is only a metaphor for their marriage. When the ring is found again, it is a sign they will be reunited.

What do you make of Kate being the one to find the ring? Is she looking for love in all the wrong places?

Another great discussion : )…just butting in on the subject of Kate being the one to find the ring….Could it imply a parallel to Sun and Jin in her relationship with Sawyer?

It also seems like she stops trying to deny that she has feelings for Sawyer in that scene..

I like the idea of Jack replicating events (replacing the lost ring).

Yawns Morning, guys. Reads

Ok, Prof, I didn’t say you meant Sun would be discarded for experimentation if the DOC was pre-crash. But I think you’re wrong. Juliet already dealt with 9 pregnancies conceived on island. She needs to know what’s different. That’s what they want Claire. But Claire escapes before she reaches the critical time. So now they have Sun. How convenient it woudl be if she conceived off-island, huh?

Michael becoming Walt-obsessed. I’m with Stip, here. He already lost Walt once, and lived with the guilt. Losing him again is something he can’t cope with. But I think there’s more to it. I think Michael can’t cope either with the fact that it was Sawyer who first tried to save Walt.

But, Stip, Sun = the sun only works in English… and I don’t think “Destiny book” was supposed to be written in English, right? ;-)

Kate finds the ring. But Kate wasn’t looking for the ring, she was looking for another chance. She didn’t say goodbye to Sawyer, she didn’t admit her feelings and she feels bad about it. Or she wants to check what Sawyer feels for her, and thinks she will find out on Sawyer’s message. Anyway, Sun stops looking for her ring and then finds it. It may be significant that Sun is “rewarded” when —even in the middle of her grief— stops thinking about herself and puts her friend’s worries before her own.

i’ve nothing to add and must watch again just thought i’d say what a good discussion going on here

About Kate I think it’s important that Sawyer left no message in the bottle because he has no one in the outside world. I guess I’d agree with wtf then—a parallel being drawn as to Kate and Sawyer needing/loving each other. And DocOcc, I agree that it’s significant that Sun finds the ring when she begins to have empathy for someone else. I also think that’s an interesting point about comparing himself to Sawyer—that helps explain the hostility.

jazzie: You said “I also think that’s an interesting point about comparing himself to Sawyer—that helps explain the hostility.” I take it you’re talking about Michael.

Yep, that’s where I was going to. Season I gave us a peek on how Michael reacts when he thinks his “father-figure” is threatened: he tried to avoid any contact between Locke and Walt, just because Locke was ‘cooler’ than him. He’s a nobody, he’s got no job, he’s no dad —he doesn’t know how to— and anyway he told Walt he was this ‘bad-guy’ who took him from his dad’s hands. Locke is strong, he’s got the moves on the Island, and Walt is just fascinated with the guy. Locke is a threat. Walt might think Locke would be a better dad than him. After all, Walt doesn’t really know Michael more than he does Locke.

After “The Moth”, things between Walt and Michael seem to have changed a bit. Michael is someone: he’s the one who knows what to do to get the Doc and Charlie out of the cave. Then he’s the one who makes the first real effort to get out of the Island. And then he screws it all again. Last thing he needs is just another hero —Sawyer— doing or trying to do for Walt what he was unable to.

great analysis, great comments. I see JP’s point about trying = giving up, but I also think there’s more to it than that. Sometimes there is value in recognizing you might not accomplish the ultimate task, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go and and “try”.

My dear doclock, that is so Jack… ;-)

Heh, l-e, I can only fall back on the wisdom of Yoda—”There is no try, only do or not do”—I think the point is that it’s important not to be focussed on the goal (whether or not you accomplish the task)—so in a way it’s not that you recognize you might not accomplish it—it’s that you are “doing” without the outcome in mind at all—At least I think that’s Locke’s philosophy in the episode and the one that the show in general seems to be supporting

In other words… Don’t half-ass it, just get ‘er done!

my thoughts….the bottle returning to shore could mean that the messages are futile because everything they need is right there on the island(stop looking) accept. or that the messages can’t be found by anyone else because the island is a secret. ironic how jins purpose on the island is a fisherman. and when sun finds her ring I confess i had tears in my eyes and had a happy ahh moment.and wanted to cry with her.

I like that dus—the bottle returning—a sign they shouldn’t leave?

I have to admit, that that was a sweet moment dush. I really like Jin and Sun’s growth as a couple.

Another is Jin bringing back Sun a flower after the Dharma VW ride with Hurley and Sawyer, and a gorgeous instrumental version of Three Dog Night’s Shamballa for background music.