Visions & Remains
+9 15 Votes
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By jazprof
- Visions & Remains
- Created: Sep 6, 2007
- Last updated: Aug 14, 2008
- After episode: 3.22: Through The Looking Glass
- Status: Current
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This theory is based on To bury or not to bury? That is the question (not a theory, but for discussion) by shamballa. You may wish to read it before continuing.
What if the the island is able to “bring back” in visions only those people whose physical remains are actually on the island-
— jazprof
This idea was sparked by Sham pointing to the difference between what the Losties do with their dead (bury them) and the Others using burial at sea.
What if the the island is able to “bring back” in visions only those people whose physical remains are actually on the island—as for example, Yemi, Boone, Christian? One vision which would remain a question mark would be Ben’s Mom—it’s possible that Roger had her cremated remains with him. I wonder if this explains Richard’s question to Ben about where she died? I wonder if the whispers also are coming primarily from the people left in the mass grave. And—here’s a crazy idea about Jacob. Maybe the ash circling the shack is his own remains. Ben is keeping his spirit trapped in this way and his plea to John to help him is a plea from his spirit to be released.
Key episodes
| # | Title | Aired | Central character | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 3.20 | The Man Behind The Curtain | 5-9-2007 | Ben | 415 |
Oh YES, jazz! I love it. Totally ties a nice little ribbon around that idea! I too have pondered the significance of Richard’s question to Ben. That makes alot of sense to me. Great post!
thanks Hex!
kat, was just reading your reply to sham’s post, and wanted to say sorry tht I had forgotten your earlier post on burial and the whispers…so, folks you may want to read that also—these are all connected m’thinks.
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2007/may/11/funeral-customs-others-sacrifi/
Brilliant jaz.
Some other question marks would be Hurley’s vision of Dave and the possible whispers of Duckett.
Could Dave have actually existed as a real person, lived and died on the island, and was “projecting” himself to Hurley while he was in the ward?
When we see what appears to be Ethan and Richard off island, but are they physically there?
I hear you kat.
jaz is like running circles around us.
sip
I wonder if she has been diagnosed with AADHD.
heh, thanks guys…swoosh…zip
thanks again…swoosh…zip
No, no coffee, thanks anyway sham,…swoosh…zip
I like those suggestions about Dave especially; wonder why Hurley in particular would be the one to see him? (Dang, just checked Lostpedia and Lindelof says “Dave” is not the same “Dave” as Libby’s husband. Gosh guys, aren’t there enough names to choose from? Misleading the theorists like that,..naught writers!)
My upstairs neighbor has ADHD (well if you believe in those things—I actually think this diagnosis is more about trying to control kids so that they will fit in to the prescribed classroom environment). When he was about 5 or 6, his Mom would send him outside to run around the house a dozen times or so. So I’d be sitting working at the computer and this little face would zip by…again….and again…and again…
Being ever the practical one, I am compelled to bring up some thoughts regarding the substance surrounding Jacob’s crib…
If the stuff surrounding Jacob’s place was sand, salt, gunpowder or ash, then it would have to be maintained due to the elements. Wind, rain. boars and jungle growth would do a number on it.
We assume it is a circle. If it is then I am reminded of the circle of salted earth that Eko saw when he was with John.
They subsequently found the Pearl station which is a station to observe the others and to report. A psychology experiment.
What if Jacob’s place is a station or hatch? Possibly this one…
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/dharma_Logos#Unidentified.22Psychology.22Logo
no, no, kat, not slow…supple and stealthy until she pounces with brilliant speed, you know, kind of like, …well, you know…
LMAO jaz!
I watched the Incredibles again last night and Dash keeps popping into (and out of) my head. :)
I love that flick.
yes Sham, just remember: nocapes! (I love Edna Mole.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68ndaZSKa8&mode=related&search=
Sham, I wasn’t into the Dave idea, but i am all over the Jacob cabin as a possible hatch idea. btw, that link didn’t work for me.
But what if Jacob’s cabin is more of the above ground structure that hides the door to another chamber underneath the ground? The similarity of the ash to the ring of salted earth around the entrance to the Pearl could be more than coincidfntal.
Could Jacob’s cabin=Jacob’s ladder? Only this ladder goes DOWN to the underworld….
Stip tries his dash thingy…burp…okay, how about a woosh…gork….nope, okay last one, a zip…crash, smash, bang…nope…never mind…
Stip crouches, the ground ripples beneath him, he catapults into the sky…da da na na, na na na…
Interesting.
The only problem I have with the circle around Jacob’s cabin being his remains is… it seemed like a fairly large circle… and thick, too.
Also… I’m kinda going along with kat on this one… maybe the guy Ben ran into in the jungle was fascinated that Ben saw his dead mother because she hadn’t died on the island. Seeing people who had died on the island is, perhaps, no so unusual. Maybe we can still presume that such visions are generated by the smoke monster. But Ben’s visions of his mother were different (remember how he saw his mother within the sonic fence). And maybe this is what made Ben seem so special… like Locke’s healing made HIM seem special. Of course, this would contribute to Ben’s current mystique with the Others… it would be difficult for them to reject him as leader when they know he has certain special powers.
Yeah, I know… I’m not saying anything here y’all haven’t said before. But I think it all still might fit into what you’re saying here, jaz.
Wow. Just… wow. Worships
shambuddy: You mean this logo here? http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:bdharmapsych.jpg
jaz: Great post as always. +1 I have,what may seem like a silly question, but what about the vision of Kate’s horse? How would that fit into your theory?
btw: Neither link worked for me!
Kate’s horse was real. At the Flame Station we saw that there are horses on the island.
At least that’s my opinion.
So that explains why both Kate and Sawyer saw it then. It wasn’t a vision at all. Thanks, Prof. :)
oh yeah, that difference with Ben’s Mom does seem significant—something going on with electromagnetism+remains=visions? But somehow Ben has power to overcome some kind of dampening effect?
Stip, I really like that connection to Jacob’s ladder. I wonder if Jacob is a very old spirit (Magnus Hanso?); he’s been trapped on the island a long time. Because of Ben’s special powers he saw him as a way to shake off this mortal coil (or this Tesla coil, or possibly both?), but instead Ben double-crossed him and is keeping him trapped. Maybe the remains have to be mixed with something like magnetic ash from the island—that’s why it can circle the shack?
I like the Kate’s horse is real angle too.
+1 FROM ME
That hit the nail on the head. But the question still remains, how is the island manifesting this??
The fact that nicki and paulo were “buried alive” (paralysed, …but breathing) suggests that life still goes on even after “death”. (definition: The opening of Nicki’s eyes as the last lump of dirt was thrown on to the grave).
on the links, does it make a difference whether your opening on firefox or internet explorer? I linked on firefox above; here it is on explorer (it’s from the Incredibles): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68ndaZSKa8
Yes to both Stip and Occam.
Try this link…
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Dharma_orientationpsychologylogo.gif
The Plane concealing the Pearl had a question mark leading to it, this was done by planting salt strategically so that the grass wouldnt grow over it and “could be seen from above”
The rings around Jacobs cabin suggest that it could look like a target, (just as you’d see if you were using a bow and arrow) from above???
I like the jacob’s little cabin leading to a massive underground lab idea.
Jaz, perhaps if Jacob built a large wooden badger…
The logo looks familiar with the octagon shape but there is no label for it; no “Dharma”.
The silhouette of a human bust is well, “iffy”. Like seeing but not seeing Jacob?
Annie asked the question I wanted to about the horse :)
But what about WALT? Walt was not dead and he was seen in people visions as well. But Walt is also the only not dead person that appears in vision. It might be in his nature (special abilities).
Your theory can make sense.. but if the whispers are coming from the people in the mass grave, why did they ask like “did he see us?”. On the other hand, one of the whispers was “dying sucks” (i’m not kidding!) :)
+1 from me
Jacob’s ladder but going down. Like a descent into the Pearl and swan.
Stippo, thou art brilliant.
sham, “large wooden badger” roflmao! All the Losties screaming “Run away!”
I almost mentioned the horse xiv. It is kind of along the lines of Dave and Hurley in that Kate could touch the horse and Dave “touched” Hurley.
shamballa: sorry… didn’t see it, but I forgot about Dave yes.
Dave didn’t die on the Island…
dave didn’t even exist for real… so i’m not sure anymore about jazprof’s theory :(
Jaz, I secretly hope the CGI guys of Lost will put in a scene with a couple of birds flying off from the island with a coconut tied between them using a strand of tree bark under their dorsal guiding feathers. African swallows of course.
Oh god I hate it when I’m the only one that disagrees but disagree I do and since its Jaz I’m disagreeing with its even more terrible!
I don’t think the whispers are the bodies from the mass grave because I think if they were ghosts they wouldn’t worry about concealing themselves and the whispers talk about being seen. My feeling is that the watchers are very real just not real in the Lostie sense, more real in the Jacob/Smokey sense.
Jacob I don’t see as being a ghostly figure either. The way I see it the Dharma Initiative was responsible for many scientific experiements and it was during one of these that something happened to Jacob. Either that or he is in fact a kind of remote viewer who is projecting his ‘captured essence’ into the shack.
This ties in with some of Walt’s abilities as well as he has projected himself to Shannon in the past and seemingly to John. Perhaps the Others hoped Walt would become another Jacob?
Oh well I”ve said it now. Please don’t hate me everyone :-)
Oh actually I forgot to say I DO like the idea that only those whose remains are on the island can appear in visions. See I’m not all bad!
Jeez there were a lot of posts in between me reading and hitting send! xiv looks like I agree with you dude.
:-)
Actually, I’m keen on your explanation also, missus, but I’m trying to keep my options open.
It seems like every theory only explains part of the story… no theory explains it all…
i still think that dave was libbys husband coz in the season 2 finale she tells desmond in his flashback that her dead husband was called david. An why was she watchin hurly (and dave) so intently in the hospital. reckon we’ll find out soon enough!
Go stand in the corner mrssawyer, oh and where this pointy hat please. :) Kidding!
I think we are definitely skirting around something special here about death and what happens to the deceased after the fact when it comes to the island.
I think we as a community should tear apart, pry open, and blow asunder every theory that is offered up. Because then the only thing left is the truth.
I think Occam or Leko my Eko can take it from here. They are good at playing devil’s advocate.
“wear” even
Oh, and I still think the whispers are voices from the hearer’s past. I mean, the few times we can definitely hear the whispers and know what they’re saying and what they mean, they are voices from the hearer’s past, so I’m not sure why we shouldn’t conclude that’s what they always are.
Even though, yes, they are heard before Cindy is taken and before Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley are ambushed…
So, again… another theory that doesn’t seem to explain everything even though it’s derived right from what the show reveals.
o mrs. now worries at all, I actually like the idea of Jacob being the result of some kind of DI experiment gone wrong. Hmmm, it seems like I may a somewhat faith-based/spirit explanation and you have a science one—I don’t know how to begin having both be true, but that’s the direction I’d take.
Sham, Dave could touch Hurley…that’s another interesting difference. Some of them are visions and some manifestations? Maybe the visions are tied to the physical remains but the manifestations are smokie connected? I’m just throwing stuff out there…
(“Dying sucks” is what Boone said to Shannon when Shannon’s father died…)
Oh! I just thought. What about Charlie? He had a vision of his Mum on the beach with Claire…
i know it has nothing to do with the theory, but what if Steve Fawcett actually didn’t crash in the Nevada desert but actually crashed on the Island? :)
I would love to see him in Season 4!!!!
Jokes apart, I hope they will find him, I always kinda liked the guy.
Dave’s not here…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QOiG1hArSps
LMAO!
Steve Fosset I mean, not Fawcett
@ Jaz we need to do a mind meld. I’m sure we could come up with a dual theory.
xiv naughty! Ah bless I really like Steve Fossett too. I only found out today he was missing :-(
no mrs sawyer that was a dream charlie had not a vision. dont mean 2 be patronising there.
Oh mrs you’re right, and Claire was in the vision too—Dag Nab It
I still think there’s some connection being made between the physical and the spiritual. I wonder if there’s a way to bring bilocation and the possibility of alternate realities in or is that just getting too complicated. Isn’t there something going on wherein two physical presences of the same being can’t come in contact with each other, and that explains what happened to Dr. Candle’s arm (that he touched arms with the other Dr. C.)? So if the bodies are sent out to sea it’s a way to try and keep them apart from the alterante reality body? I’m in random generation mode, so sorry if rambling…
And xiv, yeah I know. I hope so too…
mrs and jaz foreheads touching cue cellos with Vulcan theme music
“Sham, Dave could touch Hurley…that’s another interesting difference. Some of them are visions and some manifestations? Maybe the visions are tied to the physical remains but the manifestations are smokie connected? I’m just throwing stuff out there…”
Good question jaz. I may drift a bit here but then you are the ying to my yang. :)
I think of Smokey as a dharma experiment gone wrong. It was a security system created by them to either keep the Dharma folk in the hatches in line or warn about the hostiles.
Created and controlled to watch and read the reactions of those on the island. A roaming camera if you but controlled by Dharma.
Science vs. Nature (nature wins and mean screws up again)
But because of the island’s unique properties, it became self aware. It is still however animal or child like exhibiting actions like tantrums and the raw instinct of self preservation when threatened.
“man screws up again”
~~~~ Now I’m feeling it Jaz ~~~~
Jack_luvs, how do we know Charlie’s vision was a dream? I have always thought it was another vision……. Did I miss a shot of him waking up? Genuine q, no offence meant :-)
If the island’s power has something to do with animating that which should be without spirit or animation—and the DI was tapping into that—is that how the security force became a being in it’s own right? And then similarly animating remains? The whispers could be something else again—memories being animated as voices?
Strange that I’m rereading Beowulf to teach tomorrow—begins with a burial at sea. And an important difference between the pagan/Christian concepts of death in that story is that the pagan’s believed in a material afterlife—thus you need to bring stuff with you. I saw the remains of a ship burial in a museum a couple of years ago. Sometimes the ships were buried in mounds, not sent to sea. This one had, among other things, a backgammon set.
Ah Jaz that is true. And of course the Egyptians also believed in a material afterlife…….
Come here boy! Come here Vincent!
Beowulf the movie is coming out soon.
http://www.beowulfmovie.com/
I’ve always been intrigued by it since I read that Tolkien was inspired by the story.
Egyptians mummified their pets (cats) to accompany them into the afterlife.
I just watched that clip of the Beowulf preview and the line between video games and movies must be fading.
I’ll sue if I see my image used in a movie with out my consent. :)
Well I like seeing that Neil Gaiman is involved in the screenplay, but wondering why they decided to make Hrothgar a corrupt king, according to the synopsis. Angelina Jolie as Grendel’s Mother—Now that is some interesting casting.
sham, I think you’d like reading it. The Seamus Heaney translation is excellent.
Lol Sham you must have read my mind. I was thinking ‘WTF?’ Indeed they did and sometimes they ‘took’ servants with them as well.
just watched the video—not quite the original story…
sigh I hope it turns out better than the preview looks. I can understand that they need to give women a more prominent role in the story since they have almost no role in the original, but to do it by making Grendel’s mother a seductress offering him some kind of Faustian pact, gack! I am so tired of that story…
MrsS: “Jacob I don’t see as being a ghostly figure either. The way I see it the Dharma Initiative was responsible for many scientific experiements and it was during one of these that something happened to Jacob. Either that or he is in fact a kind of remote viewer who is projecting his ‘captured essence’ into the shack.”
I think “The Incident” is what may have affected (mutated?) Jacob.
Abso-flippin-lutely Stippo. I buy that.
MrsS: very reminiscent of how super heroes are born…very Marvel comic oriented in that way.
If we find out Jacob’s brother is named David Banner, I’m gonna have to put the cape back on….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(comics)
xiv and Sham: I went out for a few hours and just checked back in. Thank you for wanting to ask the same question about the horse. It made me feel not quite so silly!!!
Sham: I agree with your take on Smokey. He/She is a rogue agent now!
It’s amazing the twists and turns this thread has taken in a few hours!
yeah Stip & mrs I agree…when I saw the birth of the Sandman character in Spidey3, I was thinking—smokie/Jacob—result of particle acceleration?
shambuddy said: “I think Occam or Leko my Eko can take it from here. They are good at playing devil’s advocate.”
Am I, brutha? Ô.Ô
Excellent excellent post Jaz, and great comments.+1
Jaz; Eko had a vision of the still living (as far as we know) alter boy from his brother Yemi’s parish in the run up to his death in ‘the cost of living’.
ah well, alison, thanks…
Got a good discussion going anyway…
Sorry did not finish comment - The alter boy is alive and kicking in Africa and has never been to the island yet appears clearly in Eko’s vision telling him to repent. This vision is outside the scope of your theory. Only picked it up because I rewatched this episode tonight. Sorry :(
Jazzie: I think you are onto something with the idea of Jacob being imprisoned, but believe, he was an experiment of “the island” gone array, as opposed to it being his ashes. It is definitely keeping him imprisoned, though.
I think you could be onto a good idea, with why “the others” may do their burials at sea. Perhaps this is the way to assure they never return in spirit form.
I believe that Ben’s mother appeared to him in spirit either as part of “the magical box effect”, or was really there for Ben, in spirit form.
As always, Nice Job! +1
Sorry, its Bruce Banner, not David….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3fEVgqoaok&mode=related&search=
Jaz and Mrs Sawyer, I like both of these theories and am struggling as to which one to go with, So like Prof I’ll choose to keep my options open. Good luck with the mind ‘purge’ and I look forward to the outcome
alison, no worries. :-) I don’t think this theory quite works as it is completely but maybe with all the good input it could develop into something.
Why did you think that that vision was a separate case?
sleepz, one of us, or both of us, or the entity someday to be known as Mrs.Sawjazyerprof will get back to you with developments
sham, if you don’t want to wait for the new version of Beowulf, check out 13th warrior. It was made in the 90’s and is based on a Michael Crighton novel of the same name. It’s a take on Beowulf. Its really a great movie
Yes lockeko. It’s been awhile but that was a great flick.