Hurley’s Ignorance: A Defence
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By AngeloComet
- Hurley’s Ignorance: A Defence
- Created: Nov 28, 2007
- Last updated: Aug 14, 2008
- After episode: 1.18: Numbers
- Status: Current
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Let’s face it, Hurley should have been the least surprised person on Oceanic 815 when it went down.
— AngeloComet
On a Lost Weekend, myself, Lojozz and other like-minded individuals all got together to watch Season One. It was a lot of fun, though for the first seventeen episodes we had to sit and endure the incessant ranting of Lojozz banging on about how Hurley appears to be completely oblivious to the idea that the cursed 4 8 15 16 23 42 numbers could have caused the crash of Oceanic 815.
Eightteen episodes later, Hurley finally mentions to Charlie: “I think the plane crash might have been my fault.”
It’s a nagging inconsistency. What else was I to think? The reason why Hurley didn’t spend the first half of season one fretting about the cursed numbers and how he must have been to blame for the crash was because the writers hadn’t thought of it yet? During and after the Numbers episode Hurley witnesses his uncle collapsing dead, a man jumping off a building, and a meteorite slamming into Mr McCluck’s (with poor Tricia Tanaka inside!). Let’s face it, Hurley should have been the least surprised person on Oceanic 815 when it went down. Yet he remains blissfully ignorant until, oh yeah, he finds Danielle’s scrap of paper with the numbers written on it. Then it all comes flooding back. Then he has a freak out.
Right. Sure. Lojozz rants that it’s ridiculous and senseless and, yeah, it’s initially hard to disagree. I mean, can you see any other explanation other than it being evidence of the writers coming up with Hurley’s cursed numbers later down the line? Well, luckily for you, disagreeing with Lojozz is something I enjoy doing. So here’s the defence. The case for why Hurley can explicably remain ignorant that the numbers are cursed and that the writers didn’t just come up with it deep into the heart of Season One.
Kate robbed safety deposit box 815. Driveshaft featured as number 234 on a jukebox. For 16 years Rousseau’s distress signal had been playing. The reward for Kate’s capture was $23,000. There are more, but I don’t wish to bore you.
What do all these have in common? They are all instances of the 4 8 15 16 23 42 numbers appearing in and around the Lost universe, and these all occurred before the Numbers episode. So, in the defence of the writers, here we have a pleathora of examples that display they knew all about the cursed numbers from the start. It was Oceanic 8-15 for God’s sake. That the numbers were considered from the start should not be in question. Are we in agreement? I hope so. Because if we are then all that is left to do is establish why Hurley didn’t seem to believe in their cursed properties being culpable for crashing the plane.
Hurley - But the numbers, did you ever find out anything about them? Do you know where they got their power?
Danielle - Power?
Hurley - They bring bad stuff to everyone around you. They’re cursed. You know that, right? The numbers, they’re cursed.
Hurley says something vital about the curse in the above dialogue. Just think about his ‘bad luck’. He uses the numbers and wins the lottery, but then his uncle dies. A man jumps out of a building as Hurley is being told even his businesses that burned down have made him money. A meteorite hits McCluck’s and kills Tricia? So what? Tricia was mean to him and he hated McCluck’s anyway. My point is: “They bring bad stuff to everyone around you.”
Bad luck to everyone around Hurley. Not to him. Hurley, as a rule, tends toward good fortune whilst those around him suffer. He crosses a fragile rope bridge just fine, whereas a featherweight Charlie causes it to collapse. (OK, he gets arrested as a suspected drug dealer whilst his mother’s house burns down but, come on, that’s just a blip, dude!) So he finds himself on board a crashing plane? That, to me, that’s bad luck. And Hurley a) has been told, just prior to boarding by Martha Toomey, that there is no such thing as a curse and b) believes in a curse that brings bad luck to people around him, but not to him. Ergo, the plane crash cannot, in Hurley’s mind, be the result of this curse.
No? Still not buying? OK. Forget all that. What’s Hurley got a history of? Mental illness. More specifically, traumatic mental repression. He was involved in a deck accident that killed four people and he subsequently went into a catatonic state as a result. The man has guilt issues. So. He survived a plane crash where over two hundred were killed and, if he blames himself, the likely psychological contingency for him would be repression. That stands to reason, does it not? That to avoid a relapsing breakdown he would unconsciously ignore the guilt?
It’s only when Hurley is confronted with a piece of paper with the numbers upon it does he have to accept his repression and come to terms with it - like the way he had to accept Dave was a figment of his imagination when confronted with the photograph of him and no-Dave. (Indeed, you could argue this guilt is what spurred on the reappearance of Dave on the Island.) That confrontation came eightteen episodes in, once Hurley had to face the numbers on Danielle’s papers, and thus we can explain the apparent carefree, ‘curseless’ Hurley for the previous seventeen episodes!
So. Phew. There it is. A solid, legitimate argument against the rant of Lojozz. Normally I’d e-mail him this personally, but I fancied taking this one public! R.S.V.P.
It’s a good argument Angelo. It would be bolstered if everyone on the plane had died except him, but then we wouldn’t have a show would we? ;)
However, it wasn’t very lucky for Hurely to have been on Flight 815 to begin with; at least at this point in the story.
No No No, I’m not buying it. Its a good stab but it just doesn’t add up.
Firstly you’re own evidence points to vast number of times the numbers had been used/shown, so i ask would one of these instances not sparked Hurley to remember that the whole reason he was on the freaking plane was because he believed the numbers where cursed?
Also how you can think that surviving an air crash is not consistent with ‘bringing bad stuff to everyone around you’ is beyond me.
As for the suppression argument, ok that would just about fly but then i think of the following conversation:
HURLEY: I have a sneaker company in Canada?
KEN: Well, not any more. It was destroyed in a fire last month.
HURLEY: Of course it was.
KEN: You might have read about it — 8 something people died. But, the good news is we over-insured it. It’s going to yield you a windfall of cash. And, when we add in the generous settlement from the LAPD for your false arrest you almost doubled your net worth in a few short months. I still can’t imagine how the police mistook you for a drug dealer.
HURLEY: Bad luck.
KEN: Hugo, you are not the first lottery winner to believe the money’s brought them nothing but trouble. It’s all in your head.
Didn’t seem to suffer too much trauma at that point did he? 8 people dead but not returning to hospital there. You are twisting the facts to suit AC. His specific condition was tied to his weight and he believed that it was because of his weight that the people died. The numbers are an entirely different thing, he believes they are cursed and they affect everybody around him, but they are not directly his fault unlike his weight.
Call me a curmudgeon all you will but he should have been running around that beach screaming ‘oh my god! the numbers, the numbers, it was the num-berrrrs’
LJ: Ah, thanks for pointing out the upside to him being arrested! I had that down as an instance of pure bad luck - turns out he profited from it. That’s one further point for me.
The air crash argument, that it brought bad luck to everyone around him is true, but it also brought bad luck to him. This is inconsistent with ‘the curse’ in Hurley’s understanding of it. (As ever, what we know and what a character believes are not always comparable.) As such, mentally, he could sub-consciously paper over the disconnect. It would suit his purposes to do so.
And Hurley’s blank acceptance in the office, when told of 8 people dying and then the suicide man falls past… I’d say he was in the throes of repression that he then fought against by - hey! - going back to the mental asylum (the place that cured him last time) to tackle the issue. He got pro-active. He pursued the truth halfway across the world. He became the opposite of catatonic. (He’s stronger now.)
The only person repressing the truth more than Hurley is you, LJ, you big-time curmudgeon. Just accept it’s viable. You don’t have to like it. But you have to accept the viability of it.
It suits your purposes to paper over the disconnect I’m not sure it suits Hurleys.
Hurleys blank acceptance is the point, he has become used to the fact that bad things happen to those around him.
He does go back to the mental hospital to try to find answers, and actually, i’ll give you what could actually be your strongest argument when he says the following to Leonard:
HURLEY: C’mon, Lenny, give me something. Anything. Where’d you get the numbers? Is that why you’re here, Lenny? Is it because of the numbers? Did they do something to you? Because I think they did something to me. I think they turned me into a jinx — bad news to everyone around me. And when I tell people I think I’m the cause they, they, they look at me like I’m nuts. They don’t believe me. But I know, ever since I won the lottery with those numbers.
So he doesn’t want a bunch of strangers thinking he’s nuts, there that’s it. He forgets all about his curse for 17 episodes cause he doesn’t want people to think he’s nuts.
Its weak, I think the whole argument is just papering over a great big crack.
Got to go to our Leeds office now so may be slow in continuing this argument further. Oh and i still see no reason to +1 this.
I don’t know why I hang around with you, LJ.
With the idea that Hurley doesn’t want people to think he is nuts thrown in, this is not the only argument, it’s an extra argument. How you managed to bolster my presented case and then throw all your toys out and claim it to be a signifier of weakness in all the aforementioned reasoning is ludicrous. Besides, for a person who’s spent time in a mental institute (a truth Hurley has inadvertently only revealed to a handful of people on the Island) having people think he is a crazy is something he would be remarklably sensitive about. So even if it were the only argument for (which it isn’t) then it’s a good one.
I can’t believe you didn’t have the grace to +1 me. You’re being sent to Leeds for the day because your colleagues can’t stand you being around them anymore with your curmudgeonly, beady-eyed ways.
Accept the viability. Just accept it and lie back down again.
You both present good arguments.I’d like to add a couple of small notes. Hurley does blame himself for the bad luck of others because of his choice to use the cursed numbers. No telling what was in his mind before we were shown anything. I always had the impression that before he finally did speak up, it had been on his mind for a very long time.
ozzig, I had that impression too.
Angelo and Lojozz, I think you both bring up good points, as well. What bothers me (and theres probably a very simple answer that Ive forgotten) is, if Hurley is so convinced the numbers are cursed, why did he get on flight 815??
Oh, and +1. You and LJ can share it!
I have to admit that with my considerable help you may just about have a viable argument but it still feels papered over.
We are talking about fun loveable Hurley, the Island morale officer. It just doesn’t feel right that he has just crashed knowing (thinking) that he is cursed. I mean seriously would you take the word of a woman who lost her leg the very day that her husband used the numbers that it is all in your head? For me the fact that Sam Toomey had to commit suicide to escape the curse would have Hurley far from convinced that he was imagining it. So he boarded that plane still believing that he was a jinx to all around him (thinking about it, that’s pretty bloody irresponsible behaviour) and then as soon as he survives the crash he suddenly forgets all about his curse for 17 episodes. This is the same guy who stopped a man from changing a light-bulb because he was in the general vicinity.
The reason I didn’t +1 you is, I have had to add to your theory twice (I’m kind like that) for it to come even close to holding water, which it still doesn’t. That doesn’t and never did mean that I won’t +1 if you convince me.
PS I’m not Howard Moon and my eyes aren’t beady.
Annie, ever the diplomat, thank you.
LJ: Why not take a flight? He took a flight to Sydney without a problem. And he can’t trust his own mental faculties. He imagines people that don’t exist and is aware of it! If enough people tell him something isn’t so (both his parents chimed in to the same chorus that Martha capped off: there is no such thing as a curse) then he’s got to pause for thought and take into consideration he’s a nutter and ought to listen to what sane people are telling him.
Anyway, I’m glad that you have eventually conceded to my way of thinking, even if you did have to chuck in your own dribs and drabs of information to make yourself feel better about it. Like a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down.
P.S. Your eyes are significantly disproportionate in relation to your face. Sometimes I can’t tell if you’re looking at me or asleep.
He has fairly significant evidence that the numbers have brought a curse no matter who tells him otherwise. You use the fact that his parents tell him there is no curse as evidence. Really? His father who abandoned him and then tried to con him into believing the curse could be removed. His father whose first words to his son after 17 years were ‘Hey, your mom wasn’t kidding about those candy bars’. His mother who sites as proof that he isn’t cursed the fact that this great man has returned. Yeah thats convinced me.
You also site Martha the woman who as mentioned lost her leg, whose husband kept a diary of all the misfortune that befell him after using the numbers. Again very convincing. Hurley tracks down the one other person who has ‘opened the box’ and used the numbers and what does he find? He finds a man who had to kill himself to be rid of the curse, yeah its really stacking up.
The point about the flight is, he won’t let somebody change a light-bulb while he’s around, so using that logic should he really have taken the flight to Sydney in the first place? Good old Hurley.
PS You’re so dull I usually am asleep.
Not just his parents. Or Martha. His accountant, too. Probably anyone else (as Charlie’s reaction testifies) he bothered to bother with it. There’s no doubt a whole host of people who - their past mis-deeds aside (which are irrelevant since everyone is giving the same message) - have told Hurley there is no such thing as a curse. Hence his relief when Danielle states a belief she thinks he might be right. It’s the whole world lifted off his shoulders that someone stated it could be the case.
The compelling evidence that there is a curse, as I outlined in my actual theory, was the subject of repression. Must I go over the points I have already made and effectively argued?
The ‘lightbulb incident’ occurred at the height of his paranoia; it’s not an indication to the permanent state of emotion Hurley exists in. As stated, he flew to Sydney without incident just fine because bad luck happens to others around him, not to him. (It doesn’t matter if you think this isn’t true - it’s what Hurley believes TO BE TRUE.)
Well surprise surprise you got to the ‘it doesn’t matter what you think’ argument, well good because what Hurley most definitely did think was that he was cursed.
As you’re floundering I’ll give you one last piece of help, if you can’t make it water tight after this then the +1 is never happening.
Perhaps the reason Hurley didn’t put the crash down to the curse is the fact that he should never have made the flight in the first place, everything that could go wrong did go wrong including his alarm clock burning out. So perhaps he reasoned that as he was never meant to be on the flight it could not be his fault (or more accurately his curse’s fault) that it crashed.
IMO its still a bit weak so tighten it up a bit and we’ll talk ratings.
I’m not taking the bait on the “it doesn’t matter what you think” line. Cheap shot.
In all seriousness, the business of Hurley’s Journey to the airport had occurred to me when I was putting this together, and the train of thought that lead me down deserved its own theory. Short version is that the numbers were effectively aiding Hurley, preventing him from boarding a flight that would crash anyway. In short, ensuring bad luck did not fall upon him, as you’re leading towards with your point. Is this good enough rationale to govern Hurley not assuming the curse couldn’t have caused the crash? Not really. He seemed oblivious. I certainly don’t consider it a viewpoint more compelling than my original post. Keep your +1. For my own peace of mind, I’ve got the issue resolved good enough to scan.
By the way, I think you should post your other rant about Desmond’s behaviour from the start of S2 to how he acts at the end of it. I like that one.
Aw bite its more fun.
I seem to remember discussing this before, ‘the numbers trying to stop Hurley getting to the island’. It’s actually quite an interesting tangent to follow, especially if we believe (as he does) that he has broken the curse. Perhaps the curse can only be broken at the source of the numbers and that’s why they where trying to stop Hurley getting on the plane. That would mean that the curse (as an entity) knew that the flight was going to crash.
As for the Desmond rant maybe next week when I’m nicely settled in me new gaff.
Tbh I haven’t read all the discussion because I have a very short attention span (lol) but having read the theory I wanted to say why I disagree.
I think Hurley wouldn’t have thought the crash was anything to do with him at first. A because he would have been in shock and B because he himself isn’t usually so close to the line of fire, if you see what I mean.
For instance all the other bad luck mostly involved people connected to Hurley, rather than Hurley himself. All those who died on the plane crash can’t be said to be connected to Hurley other than sharing a plane with him. Would that be enough to spread the back luck? I don’t know….
+1 for getting me thinking anyway.
How come Hurley didn’t tell anyone that he’s a millionaire that’s cursed by a set of numbers he’s tracked halfway around the world? Not exactly what I’d call a mystery….how do you begin explaining that one? Also, the writers have explained their creative process time and time again……every episode of season 1 was mapped out and orchestrated BEFORE they were shot, they didn’t just wing it episode by episode, they had a strict story structure. Sure, loose ends pop up here and there….but the numbers are embedded everywhere.
It’s not like we got to crawl around in Hurley’s head and we know what he’s thinking during the first 16 episodes. How do you know he wasn’t feeling guilty, going through shock, confused by surviving a plane crash, and dealing with being marooned on an island filled with monsters? I just don’t see how him waiting to talk about it proves he didn’t associate the crash with the numbers. It’s not like someone was interrogating him and demanding an explanation….he was processing everything internally.
Again, I ask……..considering the situation….isn’t it at least possible that Hurley was unsure of how to broach the subject of being cursed by winning lottery numbers that might have caused the crash? His whole life people have told him he’s crazy for thinking so, argued with him to no end that he’s out of his mind, that numbers can’t be cursed, etc. I don’t think that’s the type of information that someone would cough up within 24 hours.
Wow, LostTheories version of the Odd Couple…..this sure is entertaining.
I assumed Hurley believed he was turning his fortune around. It’s a common theme in Lost….being on the island allows you to escape your past and become the person you want to be. Hurley went from the “cursed fat guy” to the “morale booster”, “lovable nice guy”, and “Mr. Popular”. He also won the battle with his eating problem. The island changes people, and I think Hurley thought he was reversing his fortune until he saw the numbers on the hatch in the season one finale and then on Rousseau’s paper.
I can’t remember off-hand, but it’d be interesting to research if Locke had at one point told Hurley about his whole “the island gives people a second chance” theory.
Yes, I hesitated to comment on this because the proverbial gauntlet had been hurled by AC and LJ’s honor would demand a response.
I knew that the ensuing verbal joust between these two behemoths would inevitably steamroll any comments that my feeble mind and fingers could conjure and type.
Always enlightening and frequently entertaining. :)