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It was cheesy but I think it was part of the plan by Jack and Juliette. They have spent many days planning and I think their kiss was staged for Kate. similar to how Jack saw Sawyer and Kate, Jack wanted Kate to see him and Juliette. Perhaps they will play Kate to get something done early in Season 4. That is my take on it.

Overall, the script was pretty cheesy for the finale…the situation you mention, the death of Charlie, and Rouseau’s reunion with Alex. It all did come across as some cheap romance novel…the type someone would read on a place to pass the time. Hmmmm…I am getting ideas here.

I do recall having a thought very early on in the show that everything seemed to mirror the comic book Walt was reading on the airplace. Ok, I probably need to formulate some thoughts and post a theory.

I don’t think their kiss was staged. I think that Juliette genuinely feels something for Jack (and vice versa). I don’t think she would want to stage anything for Kate.

I agree with you, how the whole last episode was cheesy. Partly the way the script came together, but also the acting being particularly bad. I just don’t see Mathew Fox as being the type of guy who can get away with an “I love you”— at least not his character on this show. (I haven’t seen enough Party Of Five shows to make a judgement on his acting in general).

Some parts of the show really catch me as being cheesy— writers seem to be forcing too many things (and don’t even get me started with the whole Sayid-Shannon relationship. uggghhh. what a forced romance that was!).

Kirby, respectfully, I couldn’t disagree with you more! I didn’t see anything cheesy about the finale.

Furthermore, my take was that Juliet planted one on Jack and it took him by surprise. I believe it was for Kate’s benefit. I believe that Jack was sincere when he told Kate he loved her, but knowing that she still had feelings for Sawyer, took it no farther. He just wanted her to know.

tree_sneakers, how can you call the death of Charlie cheesy? I respect your opinion, but I thought it was poignant and very well done.

Kirby, something bothered me about this theory, so I went back to read your first theory posted less than a week ago. Your words, “The finale was great”.

You got good ratings and comments and it was a very good first theory. I have to ask, what made you change your mind so drastically in less than a week?

Annie— Death of Charlie was actually very well done. You are very right about that. I do see it possible that Juliette was planting one on Jack for Kate to see, but what do you mean that it was “for Kate’s benefit”. What’s the benefit? I, too, believe Jack was sincere that he loved her. They had been through a lot together thus far and she has supported him through thick and thin, much as a true love would. I just have a hard time seeing the Jack character being so sappy, that’s all. You say that “he just wanted her to know”. Why? and why NOW? it’s an awfully awkward time to be telling her this, don’t you think? But yes, Annie, I do think that the kiss caught Jack off guard. [sidepoint— I love the Kate character. I can so easily see her with Jack and just as easily with Sawyer, despite the fact they are two total opposites. How the writers took these two characters and created one in Kate is ingenious. Truly brilliant writing!]

Annie— don’t get me wrong. the finale WAS great.

I just think the writers force relationships and drama sequences a little too much sometimes. Would you ever have put Sayid and Shannon together? again, a force. Sometimes I feel as though the writers, in their desperation to keep the “drama feel” of the show and keep it from being a purely sci-fi-thriller-series, bend over backwards to create and develop phony relationships.

I do not feel the relationsip b/w jack and Kate is forced, by any stretch, but why the whole Jack and Juliette dynamic??? That’s what I’m bothered by.

Kirby, thanks for the response. What I meant by “for Kate’s benefit” was just that Juliet wanted Kate to see the kiss and think they were involved.

I think Jack told Kate he loved her at that point because they didn’t really know for sure what they were facing ahead and that could be the last chance he had to say it.

I agree with you about Kate. I also can see her just as easily with Jack or Sawyer and the writers did do a brilliant job of writing that one!

Kirby, didn’t see your second comment when I posted my answer.

I actually don’t think the Sayid/Shannon pairing was so much forced as it was too short. While it lasted, it was kind of sweet, the tough torturer and the spoiled rich girl finding love. It set out to prove Sayid did have a softer side and Shannon could stop obsessing about Boone, but it just got cut short. I don’t pretend to know why. But I think it would have worked better if it had time to play out.

The whole Jack/Juliet story is still a mystery to me. I don’t know if they’re in cohoots just to get off the island or if she really does have a thing for him. Either way I don’t trust her. But, we havent’ been given enough information about her to really understand her motives either.

Annie—

Funny you should say that (“Either way I don’t trust her”). There is something about Juliette that leads us to question her true motives. But all the while, Jack sees it clearly. He sees a woman who wants nothing more than to get off the island, just like him.

By the way, and perhaps this belongs as a separate theory by itself, but there is definitely something to the fact that Juliette resembles Jack’s ex, Sarah (this was an observation made by Ben, I believe, earlier in season 3). As I have commented regarding the theme of the show in general, the losties are each placed on the island to fulfill their true destinies. Perhaps, then, Jack’s true destiny is with Sarah. Only he has lost her. So Juliette is Sarah’s replacement.

It is interesting to note how quickly and easily Jack takes to Juliette, while all the others are still very skeptical. Perhaps this sheds a little bit of light on the true sensitive nature of the Jack character. Maybe he does have a softer side, and maybe the writers want to bring that out in Juliette. Just a thought.

Opinions welcome.

“I, myself, am hoping that Lost doesn’t get entangled in some stereotypical love triangle for dramatic purposes.”

Couldn’t have put it better myself, Katrinicity!

When has Jack ever been right about a woman? He, like Locke, is a tragic figure whose major fault is trusting the wrong person. Juliette will break him again.

In terms of Charlie’s death…I find nothing admirable about suicide. He needlessly sacrificed to fulfill some image of what he thought his destiny to be. Why didn’t he ever think that Desmond vision of the future could not be changed…just like his vision had changed when he installed the lightening rod or rescued Claire from drowning. Never did Desmond say, “this is the way it is, oh well!”

Jack is playing Juliette, it was supposed to seem cheesy and contrived to the viewers.

Alrighty then, here is my take on the Jack, Juliette kiss situation. I believe that Juliette is playing Jack, and is why she kissed him, however, Jack’s response to her was merely out of affection, not true love.

Jack’s profession of love to Kate, WAS the real deal! But, he knows she loves Sawyer, not him.

You know what they say…….If you can’t be with the one you love, love the one you’re with!

If you view it with that perspective it is NOT at all cheesy and not that difficult to understand! It’s called life!

Jack is a sucker for a woman in distress and Ben knows it. As a result, I think that one of Juliet’s responsibilities is to be an equally sympathetic damsel-in-distress(like Kate) so that she can manipulate Jack. As a bi-product of that relationship she is being used to manipulate Kate via jealousy. Juliet & Jack’s relationship is a facade masterminded by Ben to exploit both Jack & Kate. Sure, Juliet might have some feelings for Jack, but her allegiance is to her sister’s health, and as long as Ben has her convinced that He/Jacob can control her sister’s cancer, she will do their bidding. There might come a time and place where she’s forced to choose between Jack(who she’s come to know is a good man) and her submission to Ben, and she just might choose Jack, but as for now she is nothing more than a manipulative device that Ben wedged between Kate & Jack.

I think if you blend Dabs’ and Rises’ comments, you’ll have the exact picture of what’s going on in that triangle, and Kate is doing the “love the one you’re with” thing even though she does have affection for Sawyer.

Hmmm KirbyKaboom I’m not sure what I think of this but you have also sparked an idea in me. I shall gather my thoughts, make sure I’m not psychically channeling Tree_Sneakers and then go ahead and post.

+1 for the inspiration and the excellent discussion.

I think Rise is right, but I think the added twist is that Jack knows Juliette is playing him and he is playing her.

I think Ozzig has it wrong in that I think Kate does love Sawyer, who knows why, and that it is her own self destructive nature that is driving this “love”.

I think Juliette is caught in the classical position of falling for the mark. We’ve seen it play out in movies and tv a million times. The character who is playing another character falls for his/her mark, the truth comes out, and the character has to seek redemption for playing the mark. That’s what we are seeing in Lost, only there are layers here in that Jack and Juliette are playing each other.

Scrap what I said, Leko has it!

Rise, You definitely pegged Jack aptly. He is definitely a “sucker” for a damsel in distress. It’s been his whole pattern in past relationships, and Juliette is definitely attempting to make Kate jealous. But, alas, Kate truly loves Sawyer and will NEVER end up with Jack.

ozzig, It’s not Kate who’s doing “the love the one you’re with”, it’s Jack. He’ll settle for a little one on one with Juliette, in lieu of Kate.

Kirby, bringing in Juliet to show Jack’s softer side could be a possibility.

Kat, agreed Lost is not meant to be solely a love triangle. I think they’ve done a good job so far, just teasing us here and there. Hopefully, that will continue because there is so much more to Lost than just those three characters (as much as I do enjoy them!).

tree_sneakers, I didn’t say suicide is admirable. I said the scene was well done. There’s a big difference.

dab, well said and with fewer words than we’ve used all day!! Kudos

Lockeko has some interesting points, but I do not agree with them all.

Yes, I do think you’re right that Kate, for some reason, loves Sawyer. But I definitely see that Kate also loves Jack. She is this conflicted character who just can’t decide who she really is. “A tiger never changes his stripes”, but Kate does not know her own stripes. So many times we have seen flashbacks of Kate running away, and she seems so comfortable in that role. Yet we see other instances, with her husband for example, where she’s perfectly content living a normal life, shopping for groceries, or cooking a meal.

That’s Kate— a character I think I understand (even if I don’t relate to that split personality!).

But Juliette is a mystery. It could very well be that you’re right, Lockeko, that she is playing Jack. But I don’t see that jack is playing her at all. Jack is not a player. He’s a straight shooter. He’s not deceptive. He’s… Jack!

But the mystery that surrounds Juliette and who she really is is quite intriguing. It certainly has elicited quite a response from all of you!

I will continue to post in the coming days my other “problems” with the characters. I’ve appreciated your thoughts as all have enabled me to formulate a clearer picture and understanding of the three characters!

Now see how long I’m proof reading my comments due to the ahem typo on the joke thread! All these comments in between….

I still stand by my last comment, but I think lockeko nailed it!!!

Well you guys, I’m not saying Kate has no affection (or lust for that matter) for Sawyer, but I do remember her looking like she got hit with a brick after witnessing Juliette kiss Jack, whereupon she jumped Sawyers bones a lot more emphatically than she otherwise would have. Even Sawyer himself noticed. But who know? I personally hope she loves Sawyer, although love can mean many things.

Death by suicide and death by self-sacrifice are not the same thing. Despite the fact that I think Charlie should have gotten on the other side of the door before closing it, it was still a noble death.

Kirby, very true and thanks for bringing me back around to my original opinion! I’m with you on Jack and Kate. Juliet is still a mystery. And I’m throwing caution to the wind and not proof reading so long anymore.

If I can offer my opinion based on the commentaries that I have listened to on the season 3 dvd set, it seems that the writers are actually trying to encourage us to change our opinions of Juliette and Ben.

In TMBTC commentary,Damon and Carlton actually suggest that once the next season starts,we will have more sympathy with Ben.And in ATOTC, a lot of the discussions are about the dynamic between Juliette and Jack and what Juliettes motives are.

I think Juliette kissed Jack because she knew there were no guns and that it was a dangerous thing she was doing going back to the beach and she’s sweet on Jack.

I think Jack told Kate he loves her, because he does, and it’s what she’s needed to hear from him.Someone like her stepfather and ex husband,loves her even though he knows her, faults and all.

Ozzig,

had charlie gotten on the other side of the door before closing it, it would have killed him AND Desmond. He cannot lock the door from the outside, so the water would have burst right through and killed them both.

I don’t suppose someone would be able to snatch charlie from inside, bring him up to land, perform CPR and revive him, can they? that’s too far a stretch, I suppose.

I just hate to think about how claire is going to react to this.

Well, Kirby, I guess you got me there! I hadn’t thought about the lock. But wouldn’t the water pressure against the door have held it shut? I can’t remember if he pushed it shut or pulled it shut, makes a difference.

I’m with you on the CPR thing, but that would depend on how much time he went without oxygen.

Basically, Desmond escaping means Charlie could have too, in the same way and same time frame. He believed he had to die, He didn’t even hold out until the room had completely filled (still air at the top if I remember correctly)

the door was pulled shut. So no, the water pressure would have pushed the door open, killing them both.

Juliet kissing Jack because she needs his protection and trust on the beach is a very interesting a plausible explanation.

WTF, I could be wrong, but I suspect we’ll learn that Alpert or _ has been using Ben’s mother against him, promising a reunion, ironically forcing him to force other people into doing ‘s bidding. I think we’re going to learn in season 4 that Ben is no different than the Losties.

Also, we know from Cuse & co’s comments that Kate’s decision between Jack & Sawyer will be made for her, which pretty much means one of them will be killed and leave her only one option. We might never get an answer as to who she truly loved or who she loved more.

As of now I think she loves both of them but once pregnant with Sawyer’s child and Sawyer sacrifices himself for the Losties she raises their love child on her own in the real world, with the possibility of getting together with Jack once they return to the island or after they leave it the second time, raising Sawyer’s child together.

Why do you assume Sawyer will sacrifice his life for the losties?

First of all, I think the key here is that Juliet kissed Jack, not the other way around. That kiss expressed Juliet’s “feelings,” not Jack’s.

To top this off, I want to say that I don’t believe Juliet has actual feelings for Jack, but she wouldn’t mind encouraging Jack to believe she did. Juliet’s motivation from the beginning has always been clear and linear; she wants to get off the island. At the moment of that kiss, Juliet calculates that Jack offers her her best chance.

One nit that needs to be picked, Mr. Kaboom: you state that Jack doesn’t get emotionally involved with his patients. I don’t see that at all. He married one of his patients. In the flash forward, he was obviously distraught over the fact that he was being denied the opportunity to “fix” the accident victim. I see Jack as a man who struggles to maintain clinical detachment, and who is not always successful.

GREAT conversation starter. I love to see us arguing about the people and the relationships. Well done. Plus one.

Thanks, Quarantine—

Jack does maintain an emotional attachment to his patients, but not because he is an emotional figure. But b/c he really wants to save people and can’t stand to experience failure in that regard. But Jack is a very “black-and-white” type person.

Your rebuttal of my point about him marrying Sarah only proves my point!! The show made it a point of telling us that the man she was going to marry was a jerk (remember him asking Jack if she’ll be sexually capable anymore, if she’ll be able to use the bathroom anymore). Jack, startled by this, takes it upon himself to “fix” his patient… not just physically, but emotionally also. So he agrees to marry her. Of course, it was for the wrong reason. He didn’t love her. He loved the notion of fixing her!

Would like to hear from you if you disagree, but this is the way i see it.

Kirby, that is precisely why Jack is so in love with Kate! He wants to fix her. That IS, his pattern with women, and as a Doctor.

I really believe that Jack is indignant and stubborn, and will risk it all, in order to be RIGHT, which has nothing to do with wanting to actually save people. He proved this in the past. That is his nature.

I do believe that Jack was in love with Sarah, as much as Jack can be in love with ANY woman. His need for FIXING them, far outweighs anything else.

i think it’s nifty that kate has the choice between two men who are exactly like her fathers. jack symbolizes the man she calls dad. sawyer is of course wayne. which will she choose? classic nature vs nurture. will she end up becoming her mother? who choses wayne? or will she overcome her genetic disposition to bad guys and choose jack, a man similar to the man she calls daddy? the dad who nurtured her.

people say you grow up to marry a man exactly like your father. in kate’s case…she’s got 2. it’ll be interesting to see how this ends up.

+1

If Kate wants to raise a love child in the real world, why doesn’t she get back with Jack? I would say it is because he is a messed up druggie, why would she want a child around that?

Frankly, I just don’t picture Kate as a mom. And someone please tell me how any of those men have potent sperm after living on island diet for 3 months! Is that a gift of the island. Why has no one questioned why Sawyer could recover from his wound so quickly but women die from pregnancy?!?!?

Sexist island pigs? :)

TS, I almost snorted my cola over that one. I think you’ve hit on the underlying cause of every weird thing on the island—the island is obviously male.

oz, you are too funny!! That’s it, of course, the island is male. It explains everything. Close down the site..

Annie: you could not be more wrong. Something as complicated and contradictory as the island HAS to be female.

No no. Something so secretive, where simple honest answers are difficult to obtain, HAS to be male.