List In Translation
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By risebysin
- List In Translation
- Created: Nov 8, 2007
- Last updated: Aug 14, 2008
- After episode: 3.22: Through The Looking Glass
- Status: Current
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We’ve all been wondering about Jacob’s list(Ben’s?), but he’s not the only person with a list.
Desmond had a list. He had a vision of certain people’s actions leading to The Looking Glass and he gathered them up and manipulated them into going along. The whole process is eerily reminiscent of Jacob’s/Ben’s list of Jack, Sawyer, Hurley, & Kate….when the sky turned purple. Ben/Jacob must have Desmond’s same abilities. I remember some of us on this site arguing back and forth about whether someone could possess enough wisdom and knowledge of human behavior to achieve such a long, seemingly impossible game-of-chess-like con, of using Walk against Michael then Michael against the Losties and etc. That was pre-‘Flashes Before Your Eyes’, yet we didn’t(as far as I know)re-visit our questions and previous perspective with the new information. Forget understanding human behavior, who the hell needs that when you have visions? Make Jin walk up the beach and he finds a cable. Bring 4 people to the dock and the sky turns purple. The only problem is that sometimes the visions are incomplete. Desmond finds out too late that the boat isn’t Penny’s. Ben is surprised that Locke brings Cooper’s corpse back, because he envisioned Locke being unable to do it….but he didn’t get to see the rest of the scenario where Locke could manipulate Sawyer, so he doubled-down and lost.
Ben intentionally changed the tape-recorder plan on Juliet, he intentionally showed Locke the tape recorder, etc. He wanted Locke to alert the Losties. He knew the Others were going to be attacked. He knew there was another arrival coming to the island(he definitely knew Oceanic was en route and that there would be survivors) Why else would the Others abandon their camps and suddenly become nomadic after building a functioning village? Of course all this information could be coming from someone other than Ben, like Jacob, or someone we haven’t met yet…but that’s not really relevant at this stage. The important thing is that the writers have allowed precognition into the Lost universe and it serves as a perfect explanation for most of Ben’s actions. Why would Ben alllow himself to be captured by such a desperate and paranoid group as the Losties? He would have to be positive that they wouldn’t harm him. It’s not enough to merely be confident in your own abilities to manipulate people and exploit weaknesses…..there’s always the-crazy-person-killing-you-for-no-reason factor.
FYI I was all set to post this theory and another list occurred to me. The passenger list. I’ve previously theorized that the collective will of the passengers on Flight 815 led to their crashing on the island. The majority if not all of the passengers could’ve been wishing to be on an island(I find it difficult not to have the same thought when flying over an island)rather than return to their tragic insignificant lives, and this wish came to fruition. Imagine a clairvoyant individual who knew that if this combination of certain people was on the plane the resulting crash was guaranteed, exactly like Desmond’s vision. Get the crew together and the vision’s a reality. Wouldn’t someone with Desmond’s/Ben-or-Jacob’s clairvoyant abilities be able to pull it off? I think so. The science of the crash becomes irrelevant. You don’t need to worry about the ‘how will they survive’, you just need to get them on the plane. Similarly you don’t need to worry about ‘will the Losties kill me’ if you know for a fact you’ll survive. Imagine a more experienced Desmond with a team/network of associates. Imagine 50 Mrs. Hawkings, working together, towards the same goal. Get these people on that flight. Mrs. Hawkings is assigned to Desmond. The psychic is assigned to Claire. The bumbling fool in the clinic is assigned to Hurley. Some would argue that it’s all fate, that no one is manipulating things….but Desmond proves otherwise. He sees Charlie die in his visions but prevents it again and again. He could keep preventing Charlie’s death, but he chooses not to, he decides that Charlie’s death is a reasonable price to pay for being rescued. And why does he make this choice? Because Mrs. Hawking told him that these things are set in stone, that Charlie is going to die eventually, no matter what Desmond does. Ok I’m getting a bit off topic here so I’m going to stop before this gets ugly. Rip it to shreds!
Rise, I really love this theory!
Anyone who is psychic, knows that you have to work with the gift in order to refine it, so the visions become understandable.
The last paragraph is outstanding! The collective mind, is all powerful. If this were put to use by all parties involved, including the uniqueness of “the islands” abilities, this is the most plausible explanation I have heard to date!
Bravo! +1
I rather like the idea that Ben is a master manipulator and not using ‘unnatural’ methods to achieve his aims. He has remarked on a couple of occasions that his plans have gone wrong (Jack learning about x-rays, Jack and Juliet being promised leave off the Island) and yet he has managed to pull them round. I find that admirable about him. To learn he did this because he has pre-cognition would actually mar the character for me. To say he made his mistakes on purpose to achieve his ends… It makes him superman. Superman is boring. A flawed genius is way more interesting.
AC i could not agree with you more
Not overly impressed. In fact, I think that very few theories stretch facts, logic, and clearly delineated plot points quite like this one.
But, I’m going to plus one you, just because I like the pun in the title.
AC, great point, and I would hate it if Ben was Superman. I don’t think he’s superman anymore than I think Desmond is Superman. My point is that he’s dealing with an inexact phenomenon, struggling to do so, but doing his best, like Desmond. Ben has made plenty of mistakes, unintentionally….he then scrambles to fix them, based on the information he has.
That said, he definitely left the tape recorder for Locke to steal it. Why on earth would he even allow Locke to see it exists, let alone where he keeps it? Watch the episode, it’s clear that Ben was baiting Locke. He uses the same technique to exploit Alex time and time again, knowing that she is the rebellious teenager. He manipulates her into freeing Sawyer and Kate, because he wants them to think they left of their own free will, when in actuality they had served their purpose, baiting Jack into doing the surgery. That’s why they were on the list, because Ben knew Jack would see their intimate moments. That’s how Ben knew to put Jack, Sawyer, & Kate in their respective cages. Ben didn’t know he would get a tumor, he doesn’t know everything, just like Desmond doesn’t know that it’s not Penny’s boat. But once Ben finds out he has a tumor, he uses his abilities to remedy the situation.
WillsDad, how about in the future you make an effort to show me where the facts are stretched, seems like on every theory I post you make similar comments, and then immediately post theories based on zero facts, like Losties being replaced by doubles.
Perhaps, I should clarify something. I was in no way referring to Ben, as being psychic or employing such methods. It is more than obvious, that Ben is the Master of all Manipulators.
AC, You did not clarify who you were directing your comment to, which might be helpful in future.
Ok Kat, so answer me this…..how did Mrs. Hawking know the man in red shoes would die? Am I the one opening Pandora’s Box or have the writers done it?
Rise, I’m with you on Ben baiting Locke. My friend and I have discussed this heavily and come to this conclusion: until we learn what his aim was with the Losties after what happened at the end of season 3 it’s impossible to determine if his plans were unravelling or working out as intended.
I just wanted to add that I don’t think clairvoyant ability and being hyper-manipulative are mutually exclusive concepts. It seems to me that these two abilities work in concert with one another. Like Desmond, Ben is presented with a possible situation/result. It is then up to his own devices to make that very result happen, and then, like Desmond did, he manipulates pieces into place, should the outcome be one that he desires. Also, if there are two ‘sides’, as Locke suggests, perhaps there are clairvoyants on each side. Perhaps Ben & Desmond are really counterparts, pulling in opposite directions. It seems everything Desmond does calls attention to the Island and everything Ben does is to conceal the Island.
Rise, I see that Ben has certain abilities which are afforded to him via “the island” and its special properties. While they may be different to what Desmond is experiencing, they are still in the realm of the paranormal.
AC, “Ben is the Master of all Masters” This is the area he excels in. I completely believe that Ben is fully capable of anticipating each and every outcome to meet his end objectives! That is what an accomplished manipulator does! The plan will unfold as to Ben’s objectives and not anyone elses! Wanna bet?
Thanks, KittyLove!
Nice catch about Desmondo being Ben’s wild card! Think you could be right about that! Btw, check back into Proffies thread and leave your thoughts!
Exactly Kat….’according to her, it’s set in stone’. I’m speculating, and honestly it’s a 50-50 shot, that she has an agenda and is pushing Desmond in a certain direction. Think of it this way….if it’s inevitable, why does she need to tell him? And why can’t Desmond continue to save Charlie’s life? I think you’d agree that Desmond wouldn’t have sacrificed Charlie unless he was under the impression that Charlie was going to die no matter what.
And what exactly is course-correcting? What is the course? I don’t get it. Is course fate? If it was fate, why would it need correcting? How could fate be off track, it’s FATE! I think the ‘course’ that needs correcting is someone(s) agenda. Ben is course-correcting all the time. What’s the difference between course correcting and manipulating people to fulfill a vision of the future? Both concepts say ‘this needs to happen so that this happens’. I don’t see how what I’m proposing is any different, I think it’s just more specific and attributes the ‘course’ to a person or groups agenda, instead of an abstract concept of fate that people are mysteriously in acting to protect.
AC, agreed, we have to wait to find out if Ben is failing or succeeding. I do think the fact that the Others were moving shows Ben was aware that something was coming though, and that could hint at him knowing the Pearl would be blown up, etc.
Rise I think my colleagues have said everything I could possibly say (except for you, WillsDad, I wasn’t going to say that lol).
Good thoughts on the other list.
Great post, rise. As you might have guessed, I’m with kat on most of this. I think you’re on the right track.
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