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that does make sense to some degree but charley is dead im afraid dominic (charly) has left lost and is about to start filming for something else. the producers have also said he had to die because of the huge build up

Even writers make mistakes. A lot of the points brought up on this website are often (IMHO) just writer goofs. But it’s fun to talk about none the less.

Charlie will be back in Season 5….AS A HOBBIT!

OK. I guess he is dead. That is a good reason, thanks for the comment. But then maybe we should not pay to much attention to every single detail that we might see as a clue and think more about the concept itself.

It was a pointless death if you ask me… He could have ran out of the hatch grabbing Desmond by the arm and dive into the water and float to the surface… But hey … his contract was up I suppose and with all the other actors coming onto the show the budget probably started to be overwhelming so the producers started to can less important characters like Charlie witch no doubt had a bigger paycheck because he used to be a Hobbit in that trilogy a few years back.. can`t quite remember the name of it though… it was something like “King of the Oignion Rings” or somethin’… your guess is as good as mine. Sike LOL

Exactly - it IS still TV after all ;-)

my initial though when charlie drowned was when the room completely flooded why didnt he swim out through the hole and up through the sub dock. but i doubt most of the stuff picked up on the show has much to do with the writers intent :(

the hole was too small… I like my idea better… running out and diving into the water and floating up up and away…

I guess that whatever they did to Charlie was just enough for the average viewer to buy. There many other ways on how to get out of there alive. ;-)

I think that too- Charlie could have just opened the door and gone out into the main room. It would have taken a good few minutes to flood from that tiny window, giving Desmond and Charlie enough time to either put on their diving gear, or just dive in the water and swim back up. Swimming upward is way faster than down so they would have easily made it.

Simply because he felt that it was his destiny to die and that if he had changed that, he would have changed the course of them getting rescued, thus not being able to save Claire.

I agree though, it was a completely foolish death, considering he had accomplished shutting the signal down, turning off that blinking yellow light and could have easily ran out the door and closed it behind him.

Although I never thought of the air pocket theory because I’m not smart like that. Whether he was destined or not, they “had” to kill someone off. They already solified by Desmonds visions.

You’re right - the room shouldn’t have filled up with water, whether or not he closed the hatch.

But the “prophecy” had to be “fulfilled”, so here we are.

The room would have filled up, even if it took a while, it still would. Think of a car in a lake, it takes time for all the air to escape, eventually it does, in the form of bubbles.

That was the stupidest way for Charlie to die (if he did in fact die). There are three possible ways that he could have prevented himself from dieing. 1. as this theory states is that the room would not have completely filled with water due to displacement. 2. Charlie could have just as easily walked outside the door and closed it, thus limiting the water to only filling the one room. 3. Charlie could have swam out the window, it was big enough for him to fit.

I was upset about that, I hope he’s not dead.

there is this theory about desmonds flashes (i cant remember who wrote it my apologies), where des actually leads charlie into these deadly situations. basically the flashes are not the future but what desmond has to do, thus killing charlie. if charlie didnt know half the things des says to him he probably wouldn’t die. i’ll find the post for you guys

Cruise2U,

That’s because the car is not tightly sealed and air can escape upward in multiple places. Water comes in usually from the floor and pushes the air out through multiple gaps.

In the hatch, the same hole couldn’t take water in and out at the same time. At some point it would simply stabilize (like when you put a glass face down in the water, a pocket of air remains in the glass).

Of course, if Charlie keeps the hatch door open, they both have all the time in the world to get the air suits and leave.

We don’t know for sure that the room was completely air tight. Even some cracks in the ceiling or walls would allow air out, allowing the room to fill up with water (a little slower maybe, but still…). I think the point is sort of a mute one. The room DID fill up with water, never mind the physics, maybe there was a mistake done in the planing of the scene but that doesn’t really mater. Sadly, Charlie is dead… although I’m pretty sure he could have swam out that hole… I think that at that point Charlie had already convinced himself that he was going to die so he just let it happen. Consider the fact that Desmond kept having flashes of Charlie’s death, Desmond had already said “No mater what I do, you’re going to die, Charlie,” If Charlie knew/thought that he was going to die sometime soon anyway then maybe he just made the choice to not fight it and instead die as a hero; sure beats stepping on a trip wire and getting a stake shot through his throat.

i hate to rain on your parade but your theory is entirely wrong. had thee window been on the floor of the room as was the entrance for the submarine, then the theory woul’ve worked, however the case being as it is with the window on the side of the room, it would’ve completely filled with water. this is because water is alot denser than air therfore the pressure outside the room would’ve been greater than that iside the room. the water would’ve flowed into the room and the air would’ve followed the path of least resistance, as always, and flown into the sea. i do not see however why charli couldn’t’ve run out the room and closed it behind him or swan out the window but meh. writers must’ve had a reason. i also agree with EasilyEntertained that desmond said that charlie 1. must die eventually and 2. that he must die for claire to be save and therefore he had to die to save him friend and the woman he loved - claire.

the window in the control room would have to face upward and be in the ceiling for the air to escape. The pressure was not that great outside of the station because it was not that deep. If you are in deep water where the surrounding pressure is greater then the pressure inside the enclose space (like a submarine) the pressure can actually deform the material that the enclosed space is build from and push the air out that way. however, that was not the case of this hatch. But thanks or your comment.

Daniel you’re absolutely right abut the room not filling with water. I was thinking the same thing when I watched the episode. To answer your question Charlie is dead because the producers said they wanted to kill him off as a way of bringing closure to the Desmond predictions. Although some people have questioned Charlie’s death as being stupid and unnecessary it was actually the only way he could save Desmond (NOT Claire!!). I’ve seen some people state that the door couldn’t be locked from the outside, but after watching the episode again it’s clear that the door COULD have been locked from the outside since there was a large wheel to allow someone to secure the door from that side. As I said, the reason Charlie didn’t do that (and also why he didn’t simply run out when he saw Mikhail) was NOT because he was trying to fulfill Desmond’s prediction, it was to save Desmond. Go back and watch that scene again. Charlie is speaking with Penny and he yells out for Desmond to come to the room. They cut to Desmond who has just noticed that Mikhail is missing. They cut back to the communications room and Charlie starts to lose the video link with Penny. He starts to call out her name when Mikhail knocks on the window. At that point Mikhail shows him the grenade and Charlie realizes he’s going to blow up the station. At the same time Desmond appears having heard Charlie say Penny’s name. Desmond is shouting out “Penny!” as he moves towards the communication room. That’s when Charlie locks him out. Charlie didn’t seal the door to stop the station from flooding - he did it because he knew Desmond would be in the room trying to talk to Penny and wouldn’t leave it. He locked him out to save Desmond. Obviously he couldn’t have done that from the outside.

But the air pocket certainly would have given him enough air to get through the window, which based on how much of Mikhail was visible, definitely looked big enough for him to get through and up to the surface. I think it was a mistake of the producers not to show Charlie trying to escape this way and getting stuck on something. Their intention was to make him a hero and accepting his fate instead of fighting it was how they wanted to do that. They could simply have make a series of windows at the top that were too small for him to fit through and avoided all of these questions. But in the end, Charlie cheated death several times so maybe it’s fair that death cheated him in the end!

Yeah thats an excellant theory its good to see that the writers have slipped up even though they plan everything so carefully. But you have to look at the actors as well as the charachters and the show. The actors may just want to leave.

Very good point.

While air would compress under the water column, there would probably be air on the top of the cell.

And that is obvious with the inlet of the Looking Glass. With the same logic they would also die from water filling in from the bottom.

People are talking about it was Charlie’s fate to die to save either Desmond or Claire - each to their own - however, I have a feeling Desmond was lieing to Charlie about the flash when Charlie drowned. When Charlie and Desmond was in the Looking Glass, when Bonnie, Mikhail and the other women were shot but Bonnie was still alive, Charlie was asking Bonnie for the code to switch off the jamming equipment and Desmond said “Shes not gunna tell you brother”, then Charlie, “Yes she is” then Desmond, “What makes you say that”, then Charlie, “Cos you said it was my destiny to turn off that jammer”, Then note Desmonds reaction to that, he almost acts like he is hiding something and I think its the fact he lied to Charlie about the flash. Watch the clip back again and see for yourselves.

Please post comments back for your views on this.

if i was charlie and that hole wasnt big enough for me, i would have quickly dislocated my shoulder, popped out the hole (after the water stops rushing in of course) and then swam up, and then have des or myself pop my shoulder back in place.

dislocated shoulder or death?

but yes he still HAD to die though.

He may not be dead. If the writers want to, they have an out and can bring him back in a year or two for the final episodes. He can go film something else for a year like mentioned above. Or if the writers want him dead. They could say he hit his head when the water rushed in and then he drwoned, air pocket or no air pocket. It could go either way. I wish he were still on the show.

Another thing which intrigues me is that Charlie could have not been dead. Before “patchy ” Mikhail arms the bomb, he could have gone out of the room and close the door. I guess he wanted to be a martyr or he wanted desperately Aaron and Claire be rescued.Also Desmond says that Charlie must die for rescue to come. However, this may not be the true vision that Desmond had and that’s why he tried to dive down to the Looking Glass when they were on the boat ( he removed his shoes to dive but Charlie knocked him down ) it’s the only reason why he kept Charlie alive before.

Another theory would be that since Desmond is a coward, he may have seen himself turning off the light and then drowning but instead he sent Charlie because he’s afraid of losing his life.

maybe there is a ventalation system that goes throughout the whole building at the top of the room which would let air escape, but i gues that would mean that the rest of the buiding would’ve started flooding too.

I agree that charlie may not be dead. someone else commented that charlie is dead because the actor is doing other projects but every major character that has died on the show you see dead. you do see charlie kind of floating off with the room full of water but it does not show him dead like a doornail. and i do think it would have been possible for him to fit through that window, he is pretty small

The producers make mistakes……… he’s dead and he’s not coming back

testdrug i agree. Charlie was meant to die regardless if there was an air pocket or he could swim out or whatever. He felt it was his destiny die in order to save Claire. Desmond’s premonitions have told us this from early on in the season. He thought this is what must be in order for Claire and here baby to get off the island…. I totally buy it…. though now it seems that whoever is coming to the island are not there for the Losties. i like this post though, it does raise obvious questions. way cool. +1

@Iwanttobelieve.

Interesting theory. But I think that Charlie didnt try to escape simply because he knew he HAD to drown for the rescue to come, according to des. He believed that if he stayed alive, noone would get saved. Even though Des could be lying about this.

Thats why charlie didn’t ran out, closed the doors and prevented des from going in.

you are totally right about there being an air pocket. there would definitely be. just like in waterworld (i don’t know why i used waterworld to prove anything). but, even if the producers had left an air pocket, with that small amount of air, charlie would have still filled up the room with his own CO2 and used up all the remaining oxygen. his death was imminent.

Charlie’s death bothers me too. Why did they not just destroy the power line to the looking glass thus stopping the signal blocking noise and not bother going down there atall!! They could have shot it or axed it or something. Too obvious? Other power source?

interesting take! Charlie had the oppourtunity to escape…the port hole where the water was rushing into was large enough to fit through once the water had filled the room enough. If he made it down and under the station, there is certainly reason to believe he could have made it out the hole and had enough air to make it to the surface. It seems like he chose to die to warn of those coming. I mean of course he has to go for obviuos reasons outside of lost, but it could have been written so that he actually escapes and warns them when he reaches the surface.

If you check IMDB, Domenic has about 4 other movies he’s working on at the moment, one of which an X-men one - no doubt he told his agent that he wanted out of being “full time” Charlie, and a more subtle role.

Shame really, he turned out to be a great actor and only in the pilot did I think of him as Pip ;-) After that he was (and is) Charlie!

Could Charlie swim? In the first season, Charlie claimed he couldn’t swim. Then in season 3, the looking glass, he claimed he was great swimmer, captain of the swim team.

The reason charlie didnt run out and lock the door behind him as a lot of you are suggesting, in my opinion is because this would have killed desmond. desmond said he would give up his life to speak to penny again, des reacted when he heard penny’s voice, charlies knew if he didnt do what he did they would have probably both died, desmond would have gone in that room regardless.

i hope we’ll be seeing plenty of him though :)

The station is on the ocean floor. The pressure from the outside is far to great to create a vaccuum of air in the upper half of the room. If there even was the remote chance that any air pocket would have been formed at the wery top of the room (which it wouldn’t), he would go through that oxygen in a matter of moments. Charlie is dead. Get over it.

I think the writers left themselves an out if they want or need to bring Charlie back.

Ok….while i love charlie and appreciate the attempt to keep his character alive i have to correct you on the whole “air pocket” comment.

without getting into the nitty gritty science…. the cabin in the looking glass will fill completely with water. the looking glass (like submarines) would most likely be kept at atmospheric pressure in order to assure the comfort of the people manning the station. the water outside of the station will be at a greater pressure as pressure increases with depth through a water column. therefore, when the window is broken the water rushes in because the cabin is at a lower pressure (water flows from high pressure to low pressure). the only time the water would stop flowing into the cabin is when the pressure in the cabin and the outside are equal and the only way this can happen is if the cabin completely fills with water. trust me… i’m a hydrologist.

i thought that too! when hurley saw charlie off the island at first you think he was just imagining but at the mental hospital one of the men inside said to hurley… “there is a wierd man who has been staring at you for the longest time..etc” that means not only hurley can see him but a regular person too. good job!!

I think Charlie wanted to die, he knew he had to, lets say somehow he got out of the room filling up with water, that means he would constantly have to be around Desmond and his flashes, because “course correction” would eventually kill him, maybe he didnt want to make Claire or anybody else see him die or something like that. maybe he just didnt want to keep dodging death.

I respect the science, but it’s probably just a continuity error. I’m gutted about Charlie dying- he was my favourite character, but I’m now si o seeing theories that say that Chalie might not be dead. He’s DEAD! Loads of people have said this, julietteANDjack, but the bloke aying that could simply be a further part of Hurley’s subconcious. Or don’t forget- that guy’s crazy too (he’s in a mental institute) so he could be seeing some other weird guy, said that to Hurley, and Hurl’s mind then thinks up Charlie.

science_dork:

Not quite. The pressure in the cabin and outside of the cabin would reach equilibrium however this does not mean the cabin would be completely full of water. There would be an air pocket which would be compressed by the increased pressure of the cabin. Breathing this compressed air may or may not damage his lungs depending on how deep they were (the deeper you go, the higher the weight of the water on top of you.)

I hope this clears up the physics of this situation.

charlie is definetly dead in terms of plot etc but ive been thinking about that physical fact as well, and your completely right! its a shame that they didnt catch this blatant mistake and fix it before it aired…..

Lockeko is right. The producers have left themselves plenty of room to move in terms of who is dead, what death means on the island and how someone dead might manifest themselves afterwards. I am predicting that we will see Charlie again before the end of the series, in a situation far more involved than Hurley’s vision as one of the six. It only takes a week to shoot a few scenes, and I doubt he will be working too hard to do that. Anyone who has watched a soap knows a character is only dead when you bury the corpse.

if you look at the reasons for charlie dying and the things that happened following his death, i think charlie might be better off dead now.

col that may be true in soap operas but our losties have been known to bury people alive.

kwahhn……………wow that is so wired

I said the same thing

he’ll come back as a hobbit =O

Wow..creepie!

That would be soo cool =D

I believe it’s just a case of the set. When the writer’s wrote the scene they didn’t exactly know what the set would look like. Ultimately they had to suspend some logic to make an emotion scene. So if you see this episode again, just stop thinking too much and pay attention to the emotion, acting, and music of the scene. Cause that’s what’s important

Well just to add to the discussion, the science of scuba diving is much more important. Water cannot compress in volume, but air can.

The volume of the air changes the most between 0 feet and 33 feet, where it was squished to half of its previous size; a loss of 6L for every 12L. Descending from 33 feet to 66 feet changed the volume by only 2L. The first 15 feet is when you’ll feel “the squeeze” as all air spaces (lungs, sinuses, ear canals, the air in your mask, intestines and even bits of air trapped in your teeth) are compressed to half of their surface-level size. When descending you need to compensate for that loss of volume and “reinflate” your body by equalizing your ears, exhaling into your mask (which will literally suction itself to your face). You also need to add air to your BCD to maintain buoyancy. Once you’re past 15 feet it gets easier and once you’re below 40 feet you might hardly feel the difference in pressure at all.

The reverse holds true when ascending to the surface. All the air spaces will double in size in the last 33 feet; this means you need to leak out air as you ascend, bubbles will escape from your mask and you need to release air from your BCD and any air in your lungs needs to be blown out as you ascend.

The air inside the looking glass was already compressed to the same pressure as the ocean at that depth. This is what stopped the water flooding up through the dock. If Charlie hadn’t closed the door, the pressurised air would have escaped through the window, and the water from the dock would have rushed in flooding the station almost instantly. Instead the water came through the window displacing the air in the room which was slower. The air in the station was already pressurised to be equal to the ocean. So the air pocket shouldn’t have been compressed any further once the room was flooded.

There should have been an air pocket. Unless there was a leak at the top of the roof. Possibly made by the explosion. I agree.

Cmon guys! I know theres a big debate going on here! But look at the comments! People are actually having an argument over whether air compresses after the water has broken in but beyond a certain point or something?! I know this isnt everyone but its happened now and Charlies dead.

How funny would it be if at the beginning of season 5 charlie appeared on the beach and said “April fools! There was easily enough air to survive for a few minutes because the level of water could not exceed the height of the rim of the window! Fooled ya! I simply waited until a mourning Desmond had left and them got out via the window i managed to squeeze out of” :P

Another thought while we are here. charlie couldnt JUST WALK OUT OF THE ROOM AND USE THE TIME IT TOOK FOR THE WHOLE station TO FLOOD TO GET OXYGEN MASKS ON OR anything because THE station IS NEEDED IN LATER seasons! MAYBE!

Sorry for the capitals i just thought it was an important point that would be missed otherwise, cos its such a long comment :D

I do agree that in real life it would not have filled up fully. But there is a clip of Charlie floating in the water (doing the cross thing) and the room is totally filled with water.

Which I think means that, although not scientifically possible, the writers took some “poetic license” and made him die anyway. He is definately dead. He has said in interviews he asked to be killed off so he could persue other things.

But that doesn’t rule out the fact that he could appear every now and again.

But i think they definately did what they do in alot of films/tv shows, they made something happen that isn’t exactly possible in real life… just cos they can. If you get me

Im sad he’s dead too!

I don’t know if he’s dead or not but i don’t think he had to die, i think he could have had enought time to get out of the room and close the door from the outside.

Erm, I’m not great with this sort of thing but if the looking glass was quite deep down doesnt the pressure of the water get really high so could possibly have squeezed the air in the sealed room so it was only small at the top. Hope this makes sense.