(Group 1) Man of Science, Man of Faith—Is Des the Balance? & Locke/Kate
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By jazprof
- (Group 1) Man of Science, Man of Faith—Is Des the Balance? & Locke/Kate
- Created: Aug 28, 2007
- Last updated: Aug 14, 2008
- After episode: 3.22: Through The Looking Glass
- Status: Current
- Flag this theory:
when Jack meets Des it’s interesting that he talks about having studied to be a doctor at one point (and to be a priest at another), and also “lift it up” has both a scientific/medical meaning and a faith based one. Des is the balance?
— jazprof
In honor of Des’s first appearance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kth26NmI2QA.
Had this funny thought at the beginning—Hurley saying the numbers over and over, and then saying he has to pee—He should have peed on the frickin’ numbers! The curse would have been neutralized! This is the first thing I’ve ever speculated that I am absolutely convinced by :-).
The running scene to me is the most important thing in the ep. I was thinking—the stadium is the Dharma symbol! Not sure exactly what that means except the center of the symbol is balance and the outer edge is change, and both Des and Jack are running up and toward the edge. The ep sets up the Locke=Faith/Jack=Science contrast strongly. So thinking in terms of that contrast—when Jack meets Des it’s interesting that he talks about having studied to be a doctor at one point (and to be a priest at another), and also “lift it up” has both a scientific/medical meaning and a faith based one. Des is the balance? Also, he seems completely certain that Jack has fixed Sara. I’m strongly feeling that he had to have had a vision of this in “Flashes.”
Here are a few other thoughts about that scene. Des says to Jack that Jack runs like the devil is chasing you—reminds me of what the monk says to Des—gotta figure out what you are running toward. Jack trips—They are both on the same journey but Jack is going to make a mistake. Des is training for the race round the world (the race round the world alludes to the Superman/Flash races). I think Jack sees himself as superman—he has to do everything, take every responsibility, promise to save everyone. Des is more focussed on running—plus the fact of the title “flashes before your eyes” and, heh, the fact that he’s a flasher! OK—cold water break…anyway—the Flash is the one who wins—he’s faster.
One other odd thought about “lift it up”—Des playing “Make Your Own Kind of Music”—records—spiraling away from a center point. One way to make your own kind of music is to lift up the arm and skip to another song—an analogy of what is happening to Des? Implications for Jack?
A final Des observation—he is so focussed on self care at the beginning—exercise, protein shake, etc. And this is such a big turn around from the point of suicide. Thinking back to the Locke conversation of earlier—does one have to reach that suicidal point—giving up ego/self (in fact “executing” self).? Jack gets to that point too (but later than Des). Also why is Des still giving himself injections?
Perhaps related—Jack has no hope, the hatch contains hope—Jack doesn’t want to go in.
Once again Locke is strangely simpatico with someone—this time Kate. Really interesting that they are the two to go down given recent speculation about whether they might be moles or DAs. Also Kate seems to have a pattern to me of siding with Losties who oppose Jack in decision making—Sayid in the beach vs. cave decision, here Locke in the above ground vs. below ground decision.
Last point—just an image—when all the Losties are standing around with torches talking about the others they look like the villagers in a Frankenstein movie—implication that they misread the others as monsters?
Key characters
| Short Name | Full Name | Episodes | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|
| Desmond | Desmond David Hume | 2.23, 3.17, 4.5 | 851 |
| Jack | Jack Shephard | 1.1, 1.5, 2.11, 1.11, 1.16, 1.20, 3.9, 3.22, 3.1, 4.10, 4.12, & 3” href=”/episodes/theres-no-place-home-parts-2-3/”>4.13 | 1451 |
| John | John Locke | 3.3, 2.17, 1.4, 1.19, 3.13, 3.19, 4.11, & 3” href=”/episodes/theres-no-place-home-parts-2-3/”>4.13 | 1228 |
| Kate | Katherine “Kate” Austen | 3.6, 1.2, 1.3, 2.9, 1.12, 1.16, 1.22, 3.15, 4.4, 4.12 | 711 |
Key episodes
| # | Title | Aired | Central character | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2.1 | Man of Science, Man of Faith | 9-21-2005 | Shannon | 195 |
Jaz great stuff as always. Just a couple of thoughts from me tonight.
Firstly the running scene. Its undoubtedly significant and I think its very interesting you suggest the track is in the shape of the Dharma logo. Do you think this suggests their (both Jack and Des’s) courses were set from way before they arrived on the island? In which case why would the universe need to course correct this far in advance? I forget whether you are for or against fate :-)
Secondly very good catch about Kate always being in opposition to Jack. The first thought that occured to me on reading this was that perhaps they ARE Adam and Eve. Previously I have suggested perhaps Adam and Eve were from opposing sides or factions if you like….. Maybe Kate will be a mole? This is looking more and more possible.
Good job, jaz, as always… and interesting points, mrssawyer…
Kate as the mole, noooooooooooooooooooooo!
Lockeko get used to it!
Jazzie: Nice observations! The one notable thing with the comment Des made to Jack, “lift it up” brother, and then said “the leg” afterwards, made me wonder if Des was subtly giving Jack, information on how to succeed with the operation. The term “lift up a leg”, is medical terminology used in spinal trauma units and operations, and has to do with protecting the spine, from further trauma and damage, and is critical in saving the patients life! Dunno!
dabiatchishere: According to Lost-TV.com’s transcript, Desmond says “your ankle”, not “the leg”… pity, because I bounced in my chair thinking “So Desmond had flashes before the Island!!”
Oh, and just another comment on the production side… I think it would be better if the “lift it up” flashback had been aired during Season 1. For instance, changing places with Jack and Ana Lucia’s flashback on “Exodus part 1”.
That way, Desmond appearing inside the hatch would have come, in my opinion, as a double shocking event. And it wouldn’t spoil the “suspense” about the people making hostages of Michael, Sawyer and Jin.
I like the idea of Des as the balance between science and faith ,Jaz.
Desmond really looked to me as if he suddenly remembered Jack didnt believe in miracles while he was talking to him.
Good call on peeing on the numbers : )
Great work Jazzie!
Nobody does symbology like you.
One thing to reinforce: Kate, again, volunteers for a mission. Its almost like she needs to be involved so she can contain the situation if it doesn’t go according to plan.
hey when you guys get done with this theory you need to check out the following
http://lost-theories.com/theories/2007/aug/25/ben-walt-and-danny-torrance-sh/
its a winner
Hey everyone,
Thanks for the positive comments.
Mrs. —wow being for or against fate? jaz checks sky for descending foot Is there an all of the above answer? Actually I do think there courses were set before the island—I’m not sure what the course correction would be about but wouldn’t it have to go back as far as the DI settling on the island? That’s interesting about Kate and Jack—opposing sides, Adam & Eve.
Occam—the only reason I’d be against moving that flashback is that I keep thinking the flashbacks aren’t there just for narrative reasons—they are having some influence on the present. So it seems important to have the running flashback in the same ep where Des appears in the present.
doesn’t the concept of fate imply there is no correction because everything happened as it should happen. thats my understanding anyway, help me out JP
Hey Jaz, welcome back. I posted a question for you on WTF’s theory about what Eko said to Locke- I’d like your take on it, Sensei.
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2007/aug/28/mr-eko-tells-john-locke-your-n/
sure thing Kohai, be right there
L-E, I thought the idea of course correction was fate reasserting itself when something had interfered.
if fate is predetermined what can interfere with it?
Des interferes with Charlie’s fate, at least for awhile, doesn’t he?
jazprof: Re your #11, I agree with that most of the time. But don’t you feel the start of Season 2 was produced in quite a different way than the rest of the show? All that showing us the same events again and again, just changing the POV and adding scraps of information is not like Lost… Maybe they wanted to play around a bit with that, but IMO that didn’t work very well… and I’m really happy they went back to the “regular episode framework”, so to say.
Re your #16, it depends on what we consider Charlie’s fate. Was Charlie’s fate to die? Or was it to die at the Looking Glass? If we take the first approach, then yes, Desmond fooled around Charlie’s fate for a bit. If we take the second, then nope. In fact, Desmond would have been helping fate by postponing Charlie’s death until the “right” time. Ever heard of that “Apppointment in Samarra” tale?
katrina: Well, after a second watch of the scene, it certainly feels like Desmond was revisiting it…
kat,—re: getting paid for this—You are picking up on my latest fantasy. Wouldn’t that be awesome! I have actually played around with the idea of teaching a “Lost” class—if my school would buy into that idea. Problem is, I’d want my fellow L-Ters as co-teachers.
On Des in that stadium scene. Yeah I think he has a really strong sense that Sara is OK. It may not be in the form of a conscious vision that he’s seeing; it may be more like a trace or shadow of a vision that he’s not fully conscious of. And I’m not sure how the mechanism for that would work. Here’s one possibility based on Stip’s idea of mind travel—let’s say Des mind traveled back to the moment when he was painting the apartment—now when he mind traveled he still has his memories of having been through these events before. What if some of those memories—the memories of present day Des—remained with Des in the past at a somewhat subconscious level. He would then have seeming moments of precognition like the one we see in the stadium, when actually what is happening is that he’s remembering his future memories.
Occam: on #11 I actually liked that technique just for the hatch discovery since it was such a big mystery—having the bits of info added in different pov’s. I agree it wouldn’t work as an overall structure.
re #16 I agree that either of those approaches works (and in fact would really like to say, o the heck with it, let’s say both are true). But I think the whole idea of course correction is introduced with Mrs. Hawking to suggest that some correction is needed. Don’t know of that story.
And back to the idea of whether Des and Jack are already on some kind of path at this point, I’d have to say yes. This is the scene that always made me think that Jack like Des must have a handler or handlers (or Fatebenders) and that Jack’s was probably his father.
Amen Jaz. Thanks for the mention.
Regarding Jack and Desmond, I get the impression the two like each other. Or at least respect each other. Something tells me these two will be joining forces in the future - each tapping into the other’s abilities, maybe even involving their fatebenders - in a common fight against the evil powers that be.
Regarding you teaching a LOST class, I would be honored if I were tapped as a guest speaker to deliver some sanctimonious pontification on the mind travel theory and how to use it to improve the 2nd life. Of course you’re teaching college students, so the discussion would degrade into sophomoronic juvenille incorigibility and we wouldn’t get anything done so you may have to settle for the LT boyz putting on a dance number for you ;-)
oooo kat, I hadn’t thought of that, but yes, that would be an awesome possibility. Though if it happens in the future and Des has already mind travelled? not sure…hard to keep these times/memories straight.
Stip, I so love the idea of the Des/Jack team. And on the class: you say “sophmoronic juvenille incorigibility” like it’s a bad thing. :-) The more play time and the less I get done the better, I say. Bring on the fabulous LT boyz!
kat—the “saving humanity” LT class! Hanso Funding now—the grant proposal is forming in my mind as I speak (cause there’s no room left on the frickin’ desk—I gots to clean my study today)!
jazprof and, of course, anyone else interested: here’s a link to one version of the “Appointment in Samarra” short tale. http://www.k-state.edu/english/baker/english320/Maugham-AS.htm