LOST-Theories.com

Fits nicely with the whole black and white theme too tharde5.

Giver, Taker, Black, White, Good, Evil…

I myself subscribe to Gray or differing shades of what is truly wrong or right.

I think Sawyer turned the “corner” so to speak when he went back to help his friends on the beach.

If I had a choice, I would want Sawyer watching my back, not Jack.

+1 Great observations on our losties. I particularly liked your take on Kate.

Once again, though, I have to agree with sham on Sawyer. I am hoping he has turned a corner, risking his life to help his friends on the beach.

What’s your take on Sayid? Giver or taker? I can’t decide.

Great question Annie. In my humble opinion and from what I have seen…

Sayid is a giver when it benifits not only him, but those he cares about.

I would pick Sayid over Sawyer over Jack in a bar fight. :)

Anyone wanna go to a bar?

Sayid is definately a giver from everything I have seen. Just his line in Through the Looking Glass about him willing to sacrifice his life for thier rescue shows it.

sham: Only you could turn a theory into a trip to the pub. lol.

Sayid is most definately a giver. Some might point out the interrogations etc.. but that was a job he didnt want. Yes he did it to survive. But his intentions are always in what is best for all. BTW I’d want Sayid on my side in a alcoholic tussle.

Annie via sham: Well Sawyer is hopefully making a transformation, from his selfish ways. After killing Cooper is that the closure that he needed to help him leave his selfish ways. Or is the island the means to the ends in his case?

Anyone who can snap a neck while being hogtied is ok in my book. :)

In all seriousness (is that a word?) I think Sayid screwed the pooch when he got eyes for Shannon.

I rank Shannon right down there with Michael.

Good riddens.

We had a party, when she died

sham: I also wanted to address the comment on gray. Is it possible to be a selfish person but yet perform random acts that say otherwise. If a person is capable of such selfless acts but has untrue intentions does that make it a shade of gray? If someone is selfless and perform acts that only are in that persons best interests are they truly selfless(givers)? This makes me think of Charlies heroic act that was very much out of character for him. Not that he was a taker but more of a coward, or should I say have too much fear to even saye a drowning swimmer, earlier?

Well he said he couldnt swim to Jacks Face, yet what in lost days 40, 50, cant rem, he tells Jack that he was the Manchester junior swim champion for the looking glass mission. Strange……

Shannon was a poor example of a human. She was also a taker, in a little different manor. She was a sponger that need a good swift kick like the one that her mother in law gave to her. And weren’t we all sad for poor Shannon. She was a user and an abuser. No doubt!

OMG I hate to spoil the party but I couldn’t agree less. Yes I agree Cooper is the ultimate ‘taker’ but Sawyer is not. Yes he is a conman but I think his flashbacks serve to illustrate that he is living a lie. Sawyer isn’t Cooper, he is a redeemable character and the writers couldn’t be pointing that out any harder. The clues are many: Clementine, his love for Kate, his desire to be a functioning member of the idea (particularly the ep. where Hurley cons him, in order to lead him to his new purpose as surrogate leader).

Kate - I don’t think she is a taker. Her motives arise directly from her desire to protect her mother. She is almost the ultimate giver in that she gives up any hope of personal future happiness to save her mum.

Ben - as loathesome as the character is I do tend to believe that we will find out the others really are the ‘good guys’ to paraphrase several of them. Btw I think Ben is a great addition to the show, he’s just SO evil its untrue.

My point here is that I don’t think we can polarise the characters in this way. It seems increasingly clear to me that black and white is the true red herring of this show. I almost sense a theory coming on ;-)

Sorry for the rant but hey, this has inspired me even though I don’t agree! Cheers dude.

I dont see Sawyer as a taker at all. I think it would be really useful to know that there is one place to look for what you need. Since Sawyer has trust issues,he has appointed himself as caretaker of the useful supplies. The gun episode was regrettable and what Charlie did to Sun was probably Sawyers fault ,but Jack and Locke were getting out of hand.

I dont think he would deny anyone anything in an emergency.

Sorry. I love Sawyer, so i might be biased :-)

Lol wtf I’ll join you in the biased camp.

But seriously I’m with you. I don’t think any of the Losties are purely good or bad…

I agree with shamballa and Annie about Sayid and Sawyer!

I heart Sawyer. I hope I dream about him tonight.

I know Mrs……

Its not so much the actor but the character…..yeah?(well his looks help alot)

Once I saw him as a little boy with his mum it was all over for me!

Sawyer is a Taker. Check lostpedia for the Socialism vs. Capitalism angle and the Sawyer = Monopoly angle.

I’m with mrs.s and (wait don’t throw things) would even put in a good word for Shannon—Yes, she was mostly a taker, but I think she was starting to change before she was killed. And I think Sawyer early on was actually more of a giver (though trying to wear the tough bad-guy mask)—when he starts to con and take things from people is when they have bought into that mask and he starts to live down to the image. In Season three I do think that Kate is a taker as far as Sawyer is concerned—I think she is using him very clearly late in the season. And when he has the line about “you don’t need to use me, just ask”—I think it shows that in relation to her, he is the giver. I see Sayid as primarily a giver. And I have even wondered if he did torture Amira—or did he give her that answer for her own closure.

While I relish the idea to make a point, I knew the sh*t would hit the fan when Sawyers true colors were revealed. Sawyer has character flaws that reflect a poor upbringing. His entire life has been focused on returning back the evil that what has been poured all over him. He has shown a soft spot numerous times on the show. However his intentions are always jaded to self. His perspective on his surroundings and activities are always self centered. Even going so far as to hoard his own food supplies. His is a survivor, and is always on the look out for his own self preservation. Either one of two things must have created such a shallow self centered persona. Either he grew up on the streets by himself or was a product of foster homes/orpahnages or possibly both. His disregard for others is apparent constantly in word and deed. That being said can a person “change his stripes”. When I say we see a chink in the armor, it’s obvious he has the capability, and quite possibly this time he is spending with the survivors, might force a change. But if he were back in his element would he be so apt to change? That s an interesting question. Is his love for Kate enough for him the change completely. Love might just conquer all in Sawyers case.

Ok i hate the Sawyer debate but i always have to comment if there is one. Why is everybody so sure that Sawyer has fallen for Kate? They’ve only known each other for 3 months. In The Last Con, he was with Cassidy for 6 months and still screwed her over. I just think he’s trying to play his cards right. He obviously knows Jack has him figured out i.e the poker game. The only wild card he has to control Jack is Kate.

The fangirl in me totally disagrees with you KB!

tharde: Thanks for the feedback on Sayid, I would say he is a giver too.

sham: “screwed the pooch”? that’s a new one for me! And no bars, you’re just trying to get Mrs Sawyer and me drunk before our showdown.

But seriously, after reading all the rest of the posts, what keeps coming back to me is what the writers said Lost is all about: The characters and how they reinvent themselves.

So, yes, some may have been takers and some may have been givers, but in the end I think what we will see is how different they have become since the crash.

Tissue, please. I think I’m going to cry now.

Beautifully said Annie. sniffle sniffle.

ok you got me on that one Annie79

I love Sawyer, (who doesn’t?) His emotions are so real that it breaks your heart, but Sawyer is definitely a taker. In my opinion, he did not turn the corner by killing Cooper; if anything, it crystalized the fact that he was and IS a taker. Nevertheless, I love him anyway, and I blame the entire Cooper incident on Locke, who in my opionin, is also a taker.

Excellent ideas Tharde, +1 from me.

True Annie79, very true. sniff sniff

Dayhum! One has to be careful about what one says regarding Sawyer around here! Lest the claws come out and make mincemeat out of you!

Sawyer has a way of turning otherwise ordinary, peace loving women into stark raving lunitics.

I must say though, if I was that way, I would probably go for him. And now I will dream about Kate. :)

I’m about to GIVE +1 for this thread. (Good job, tharde.)

And I’m about to TAKE a swipe at all the Sawyer haters in the room!

No, I’m not in love with the guy. But he treats Kate like an equal (or at least he did until his encounter with Cooper) and if you pay attention he’s constantly trying to help people survive… didn’t think twice about trying to get meds to Boone when he was dying… helped Michael after the raft was attacked even though Mike was being a total ass…

And did you see what happened to him when he was a kid? Did you see what happened to his mamma?

It’s obvious he only does what he does because he hates himself. Who among us can’t understand that? He don’t mean any of it.

Yessir… Sawyer’s OK in my book. Even Hurley figured that out eventually. And everyone else just needs to lighten up!

So… I’ve said my piece. Now y’all can just git!

Oh…..and what about….”Close your eyes freckles”……..(S3 E6/ I DO)

Taker! ???…….. I think NOT!!!!!!!

Taker!!

Umm….think i better go watch some skate vids now….bye ;-)

Look, i understand Sawyer is more identifiable than Jack simply because his flaws are more identifiable. But, if he was presented with the option of saving Jack and Kate and thrown in the Bear cage eating fish cookies for the rest of his stay, or saving his skin, you think he’d throw himself to the lions?

Taker!!

I do remember Sawyer wrapping a metal chain around the neck of a man with grey hair and squeezing his neck silly - LATE IN SEASON 3.

Taker!!

KB=Jater

KB—when Sawyer is in the bear cage and thinks he has the heart implant what does he tell Kate to do—leave without him.

I think he was turning a corner—not so much in terms of being a giver or a taker, but in terms of letting his good side show through. But I think killing Cooper changed that. I think in S4 we’re going to see him behaving really badly toward Kate—why? Cause he wants to turn her away because of the things he has done. If he was a taker he’d just let her stick around.

The hilarious part about all this is that there was initially only one “bad” remark about Sawyer.

KB said, “Sawyer is a Taker. Check lostpedia for the Socialism vs. Capitalism angle and the Sawyer = Monopoly angle.”

Then all hell broke loose! LMAO!

shut up kb. sawyer is a good guy at heart or he wouldn’t have given all the money to the kid, gone to save jin, sayid, and bernard, and taken a whoopin for Kate, and he does love kate, as best he can. deal with it;; Jack is a taker, Jack has to have it his way.

wtf, what’s a Jater?

jaz, Kate is the only thing giving him purpose on the island and his only, umm let’s say “insurance”, against Jack so he won’t be turning her away anytime soon.

Also, I don’t think the writers will let Jack off the hook that easy in terms of fighting for Kate. They need that love triangle aspect going to have people like us debating. I do think she’ll end up with Jack in the end, just not so soon!

dumbass, in the flash forward she wasn’t with jack, no happily ever after there

ummm temper lockeko!!

who said the flashforward was the last episode?

Jate is fangirl speak for the pairing of Jack and Kate.

Sorry KB…Just playing around.

I do disagree with you though.

who said you could talk, shut up kb, don’t speak until shamballa says you can.

I’m with you KB; he killed Cooper; he didn’t need to do that.

Jaz, he hates himself for it, I’ll grant you that , but he still did it. He’s a taker, as is Michael and Locke.

Actually i don’t like Kate at all (messing with both of their head) and i’m hoping they’d find Jack someone better than Julliete. But, in terms of character analysis, comparing Jack and Sawyer, Jack goes all out every time!

thats cause jack doesn’t know how to snowbird.

am i missing something here lockeko? what does sham have to do with anything?

I’m with freckles, get em girl

Alice…I think Sawyer sees himself on a par with Sayid now.

The crimes they have committed have made them nothing more than valuable protectors of the community as they think their own lives are worthless except in what they can do to help the ones they love and care about.

In Sawyers case I think this is the first time he has let himself become part of a community and a possible leader.

Killing Cooper and Tom proves he is a Protector .

Very useful for the Island.

It’s completely justified kat! That man is the reason for the way Sawyer became who he is. He killed him. Thus, Sawyer didn’t change!!

kb, sawyer did what he set out to do when he was 7, thats not bein’ a taker, thats divine justice

Look, we know what happens when the characters come to terms with their flaws. They don’t get a new paycheck. When Sawyer was presented with the ultimate test, he failed!

whatever, the ultimate test was killin’ the rat bastard that caused the death of his parents. Hell I’d a done the same thing. Its a southern think KB, and unless you are southern, you won’t get why sawyer did what he did.

I’m sorry Kat, I disagree with you. The killing was unjustified and unnecessary. Cooper was already defeated. Nevertheless, I still blame Locke - he will need to repay this debt to Sawyer in the end.

thanks Kat, you must be southern, these yankees just don’t get the whole world view of a southerner. Don’t let them ruffle ya too much one day when they die and go to heaven, they’ll understand what sweat tea is all about.

Freckles, alice doesn’t get it, we do. let her revel in her arrogance, like reconstruction.

truth is locke is weak. He hated the guy and wanted him dead but didn’t have the stones to do it himself. thats weak. Only person he could kill was naomi, and thats cause ghost walt told him to do it.

hook em horns

whoo pig souie for me though

and b/c locke didn’t have the stones

lockeko, i’m not taking this issue in a “what would i do if i was in his shoes” kinda way. I’m taking it in terms of what have we understood from the series so far.

The losties have issues Those issues are tested When a character comes to terms with those issues - they seem to die.

kat, Sawyer’s has been punishing himself because of this man his whole life. He blames him for everything that has happenned. Since he strangled him, he obviously is STILL blaming this man for his everything.

Think back to Eko’s story!!!

Thanks to ProfO and Lockeko for being men and telling it like it is!

How can he let go of Cooper??? HE KILLED HIM already?!?!

Just ‘cause Sawyer’s from Tennessee…

That’s like having his cake and eating it too! Doesn’t make sense for all the others dying then!

Kat, he was defeated. He was brought to the island against his will. He was clubed (nearly to death) by Ben. He was tied up and made to look like an idiot in front of Locke and the Others. He was dragged to the Brig, handcuffed in chains, with a gunny sack over his head. All Sawyer had to do was walk away - he couldn’t do it. As KB said, he failed the test….!

Lockeko, now that’s just funny, dude, Are you really suggesting big, brave you would have taken care of big, bad Cooper? Don’t make me laugh!

i gotta hit the sack…nice debate though!!

ohhh yeah lockeko….

Sawyer’s a Taker!!

Wow what a thread when I left there was only 20 comments and now its over 80. There have been alot of wonderful comments and after hearing all the pleas I am still in the corner that he is a product of his upbringing. He has this overwhelming desire to survive and damn anything that is contrary to that. So if Kate wants to be in his corner she’ll have to accept Sawyer for all his deficencies. He still has miles to go as far as a transformation that is why he will not be killed off. He still has issues. Loud and clear. And I’m not an evil dude Sham I am trying to call them as I see them.

blows the whistle

TIME OUT!

Lockeko, please go to your usual corner. Yeah, the one with the well worn groove in the wall.

OK, KB, it’s ok, just keep your head tilted at a 45 degree angle. Yep, good…

OK, Kat is ok as usual.

Yep, alice and mrs fine ok…

Oh damn. Where the heck is profO?

Is playing with the sonic fence again?

profO, if you keep pushing jaz through the fence like that there is bound to be some damage.

I know the foam looks funny but that is not the way we play ok?

Wait for it…

My impression of YKTN…

Dear tharde5,

I never called you evil my friend.

Oh, I agree Kat; Cooper had it coming. He was a bad guy. It’s just that it didn’t need to happen that way. Unfortunately, it made Sawyer look weak, not strong. There was nothing heroic about that performance. I guess what I’m really hoping for, is that somehow, Cooper was really never there - it was just Locke’s (and Sawyer’s) imigination. But I don’t know.

Thanks and good night!

Sham,

You’re too funny! Oh yes, and you’re OK too!

I know, I’m leaving!

Sham: I have read so mamy of your comments that I know twhere your coming from. I guess the comment was about opening a hornets nest. No problem at all. Interesting how so many defend Sawyer to the end.

That is the truth tharde5, and almost blindly.

I guess the truth is all of them have messed up.

Jack came to the rescue right away but it took Sawyer a bit longer to come around.

I guess it made it all the more sweeter.

Your right alice. I dont think Sawyer was going to kill Cooper but then he just lost it.

I guess this is Sawyer’s father issue.

Is he capable of a terrible crime of passion like his father was?

wtf: The apple doesnt usually fall far from the tree. Is he capable? Very much so, I think the real question is will he?

I dont think he is……Just that he is going to question this about himself.

I didn’t like the fact that he took Mr. Friendly’s life so quickly.

Even though Sawyer seems to be coming into his own, it is like leadership has it’s price.

Jack seems to sum that up.

And yes, I can be serious now and then :)

Well the funny Shamballa wins in my book! The serious one make a great point that the cheapness of a human life (Mr. Friendly) is a clear sign that the tiger hasnt changed his stripes. Indeed

Tharde5, we must be careful here. I kid you not my friend. We are on thin ice.

We will be pummled by the women here if we ay anything bad about you know who.

Just a friendly suggestion. :)

pummeled even

Maybe we men need to come up with an alias for you know who…. How bout Huckelberry?

Are we safe talking about such matters? Is the coast clear?

I will be keeping a close eye on this thread while my sisters sleep ;-)

The sentinel is about… must keep the proper decorum as we speak of the “wonderful one” with the southern accent.

ah-ha…I’m watching you two….

LOL I wonder what the men would do if a Kate hate thread was started? Probably nothing. But this idea of a Giver / Taker classification wasnt meant to hate on Sawyer. Sawate. I guess sensitivity exists in the world of Lost, especially involving the Saw.

Alright, Alright… I’m only kidding! LOL!

(I’m a Jack fan, myself!!) :)

Its been a good day for me Tharde.

I can talk about the “wonderful one” till the cows come home. +1 from me.

But seriously…….I think there is no black and white as far as givers and takers go. Not with these characters.

Sawyer is Hot, no doubt… But Jack is the Hero!! I can’t help but root for him!

I agree with that wtf….there’s definitely a lot of “gray”!

Regarding Give or Take….What if you asked this: Who is “Others” focused? Who is “Self-Focused?

*And by “Others” I mean in general…”Other People”…Not “THE Others” :)

Jack has been Other’s Focused the Majority of the time on the Island. Rarely Self- Focused. Stubborn yes but He just wants to help everyone and do the right thing. He really cares about “Other People”…

People are capable of changing.. without question and the island seems to be affording the opportunity for those that want it. I guess we’ll all have to see how this all plays out, and for the record I hope that the Saw makes the change and can leave the past behind him.

I love Jack too Paintgirl…….just not in that way :-)

However, Jack has been stubborn to the point of actually placing his judgement above others judgement and i dont think it has always paid off.

Jack, I believe is a pure giver! He is always on the lookout for the needs of others. Maybe he is so selfless that he cant get out of his own way. In other words what will all his self sacrifice mean in the end if he does in fact in up in utter despair. He isnt capable of helping everyone, but is he capable of helping himself out of a drug/alcohol stupor? We’ll see if that ever comes to pass in his future.

I agree with that. So what do you think his CORE motives are for helping people and trying to rescue everyone?

I’ve always liked psychology. I’m always analyzing my friends…(with Personality Tests, Myers Briggs Personality types…etc) Anyway, I’m intrigued with “Why” people do what they do. (probably more than what they do, b/c one’s motives/reasons/agendas, say a lot about “who” the person truly is.) So anyway…. here’s a question:

You can do the wrong thing for the right reasons ….and… You can do the right thing for the wrong reasons. So my question is: Which one is better? more noble? (I know it “depends”… but just TRY to answer it)

Good point tharde5.

It’s like he is too eager to help. Like he is already trying to make up for past transgressions.

And (God help me) like he has been there before. gulp

Paintgirl18, you make some good points. I think Jack, being a doctor, cares about everyone.

Except when he has an opportunity to leave by submarine.

Kate for example did the wrong thing for the right reasons (for her mom) Atleast Kate’s motive was to help her mom, or were they to make herself feel better by getting revenge on her dad/stepdad….

Sawyer - did he kill Cooper to make “himself” feel better or was he thinking of his parents?

Jack- He does a lot of “right” things…most for the “right reasons”…but I think there is a motive in there that is focused on possibly ‘validating’ himself…he seems to get his “self-esteem” from “performance”. Like as long as he saves the day and fixes things for people then he feels good about himself….which in a twisted way is a motive that is focused on making himself feel better.

Except when he has an oppotunity to leave by submarine…..lol

Paintgirl……Jack is trying to prove that he ‘has what it takes’,and prove his father wrong. (very simplistic analysis i know)

Regarding Jack: It’s like if there’s nothing left to fix or if he simply “can’t” fix it …then he would be devastated, depressed, crushed with disappointment and failure…… which sounds like Jack in the finale….

so he is “self focused” in that regard….

Crushed with disappointment, failure and guilt ,i think….Poor Jack.

I loved finale Jack.

Jack is a psychiatrist’s wet dream come true.

I think you both nailed it. He keeps trying to succeed but the cards are stacked against him.

“Beautiful loser”

We want him to win in the end. We hope he has made the right choices.

But dammit, you know he won’t.

Actually I think Jack will win in the end…

Regarding Jack “winning” in the end: (Just hear me out…)

I think for so long now, Jack has been trying to fix things, rescue people, do everything…all in his OWN strength. I believe we will see Jack go through some hard times in Season 4, however I also think we will see him grow. Jack’s growth as a person will be him admitting that he cannot do it alone; that he needs help and then finally accepting help from others. This is where I think Desmond and Locke are going to play an important role. (Much like with Moses)

There is a beautiful story in the bible about Moses in Exodus 17. The Israelites were fighting the Amalekites. In order for Israel to prevail over the Amalekites, Moses had to hold up the rod of God. When his hands were up, Israel succeeded; but when he let his hands down, Amalek prevailed. Eventually Moses’ hands became heavy and it was getting too hard for him to keep them in the air. So his two friends, Hur and Aaron, supported his hands on both sides of him and they held his arms up for him for him! Israel defeated Amalek that day. So, I could see this type of scenario happening with Jack, Des, and Locke. Where Jack will have to rely on maybe Desmond and Locke to help him. He will have to let go of his doubts and trust them.

I think that for Jack to WIN in the end, isn’t necessarily by being THE HERO that saves everyone. I think it will be when he admits he can’t do it alone and is willing to accept being rescued himself, THEN he will become the hero that he is meant to be. The very act of allowing himself to be rescued will put him in a position to rescue everyone else.

PS: The finale isn’t an arguement that Jack ends up a loser…the writers have said that the season 3 finale is NOT the end. So he may go through that phase, but I believe he will come out of it.

Wow 122 comments, I left at 22 and thought it was pretty much over!!!

tharde: did you ever think you’d generate this much controversy????

Girls: Good work defending Sawyer’s honor last night!!!

Just so you know annie I tried my best to help the girls out, b/c I feel some folks were being way too hard on sawyer.

wow. yup I too went to bed before this thread imploded.

just a few thoughts about the new division that paintgirl suggested:

Because Sawyer is a con-man he is going to be pretty focussed on others—he needs to read others well. You can clearly see that in his naming of others. I think its interesting that he gets conned so much though on the island. He also gets beaten up more than any other character. And in the triangle I see him as the least powerful—so I don’t really see him using Kate much. I think she tends to use him. I am still undecided as to what killing Cooper is going to mean for him. I like what kat said about he was killing off his old self, but I also think think in killing Tom (Tom Sawyer), he may have killed his innocent/child-like self as well. That’s the self I see brought out in his relationship with Kate so I’m not sure things are going to go well there.

Jack I see as focussed on the needs of others but seeing himself as the only solution. And in the triangle, for the most part, he is the most powerful. I think he reads both Kate and Sawyer better than either can read him.

O and sham, picturing me as Mikhael are you? Cpasebo,Tovarich. I’ll be making use of those resurrection skills in the next tag team match. Don’t say “Dosvidanya” just say “Uvidimsia!” (I’ll see you!)

Good points Jaz! I agree that Jack sees himself as the only solution…which will be his down fall…I am just hoping that we will see him get back up again before the series is over.

Annie: I never thought that the mear mention of Saw not being a hero would spark such controversal thread.

Paintgirl: Doing things right for the wrong reasons would fall into the category of taker, in my humble opinon. That is to say if the intentions come back to self. If your doing things that reward one’s self and they happen to be right then they become selfish. On the other hand if one is doing things that are wrong, but the reasons are right then those actions would appear to be selfless. For the good of fellow man. I believe that often times Jack does this. Wrong things for the right reason. I see Jack backing up Ben in the hatch, which was undeserved but was the right reason. Performing the surgery on Ben might also fall into such a category, but could also be seen in as the opposite category as well.

Jaz: I just have to mention the constant beating that Sawyer seems to always be on the wrong end of. I just wonder if the beating that he recieves, and he seems to take them quite “like a soldier”, make him into a martyr figure. Is that why he is so beloved? This is a tact that makes him into a figure that can be admired, by all. I know the women love him for his looks, but the beatings that he takes like a man, make him a hero to both men and women. He more than anyone else is always “taking one for the team:” This makes him an admired and a sort of sub-hero. Much in the role of a Robin to Batman’s Super hero. Would he be so reveared if he wasnt always the whipping boy? Do these beatings act as a type of penance for his past transgressions? I’m not a psychologist but the beatings seem symbolic in a pentient sort of way.

Tharde I can’t believe either how this thread has polarised us all. Pick a side, Sawyer or Jack. You can’t have both.

I personally think Jack may well be a giver but for all the wrong reasons. He is doing it to make himself feel better, to redeem himself in the eyes of his father. I don’t believe he genuinely cares about the other people on the island I think he wants to be a good leader but to prove his Dad wrong. Not the most noble of motives.

Now Sawyer by comparison does all the wrong things (killing Cooper, betraying Cassidy etc) but for the right reasons. Looks aside I think he is by far the more sympathetic character. I like the point you make about his penance. I think he will ultimately come good.

Wtf good work on keeping the Sawyer flag flying while the rest of us were sleeping!

lockeko: Thank you.

tharde: I am surprised by the number of comments, but not the compassion for Sawyer. He’s just that sort of guy. You want to take care of him. Aside from the good looks, he has a boyish charm about him that has most of us girls caught up in.

I really think, if he was a taker, he turned the corner when he left the losties and went down to the beach to help his friends.

But, all in all, just see what one remark can start!! Isn’t it great? I just love this site.

mrssaw: Great points, I especially agree that Saw is a most sympathetic, and a sort of underdog in all. He never seems to want anything from anyone. No praise, no thanks but yet he is always the first to volunteer his services. I really hope that he can change how he treats others. I think that deep down he does has goodness inside. He has survived his whole life most likely with little or no help at all and is the polar opposite.to the Jack character. Jack was born to means and wants for nothing but to be loved. I think that this is where the two of them are parallel. Both of them need to be loved unconditionally. But both of them are going at it very differently.

That’s an interesting point tharde—especially in the way that it might impact male viewers. I do think he is in many ways one of the most vulnerable characters and I think this is part of his appeal. His relationship with Kate I often see in terms of her taking care of him. Jack rarely lets her take that role (exception the pilot episode). Even in this last episode I watched (“Greater Good”) she had to drug his food in order to make him yield to being cared for.

As for Sawyer’s looks—this is completely my opinion, but physically he doesn’t look “real” enough to really (heh) be attractive based on looks alone—that super-buff look looks fake. What makes him attractive is his conflicted nature, his vulnerability, his playfulness, and in relation to Kate that he connects to her and treats her as an equal (actually he treats her in some ways as a superior and I see that as a flaw to a certain extent).

Tharde: great topic - you sure know how to push everyone’s buttons - in a good way. Your comment about Sawyer always taking beatings happens in other ways too - not just physically. For a con man, he gets conned just as often - and by people who are not traditionally thought of as con-men. He’s human - and that’s what makes him so likeable - because we see a lot of ourselves in him.

Paintgirl: your 2:29 post has the makings of a theory unto itself!

In the end I think Jaz & Kat are right: Sawyer is evolving. His “Taker” label in S1 had an asterisk because he wasn’t doing it for evil/selfish reasons. Other issues were masking his true identity.

+1 from me for the great debate

Jaz: how does Sawyer “treat Kate as a superior” ? That statement is interesting. I always thought he treated he as an equal - and women (I would think) like that a lot.

tharde: Very well said response to Mrs S. I think you got both Jack and Sawyer just right!

Mrs. S: Have to disagree with you on Jack. I see Jack as a giver without selfish motives. I think he really cares about people, especially the losties. Yes, he has father issues, but I think he’s proven himself a better man than his father (at the time of the crash). I also believe he really loves Kate.

He always does it somewhat ironically, but a couple of examples that I can think of off the top of my head—when he has headaches and she is trying to get him to see Jack, when he finally gives in and asks if he can have a lollipop, she’s the Mom, he’s the kid. I think he sometimes refers to her as Sheena or Jungle Woman or something like that—acknowldging that she’s much more capable of surviving in the environment they are in. Even when he tells her to leave him behind (aside from the implant) I think to some extent he is acknowledging that he’d be a hindrance. I think the writers draw attention to the disparity as well—for instance in the struggle over the Marshall’s briefcase. Where I see it as a potential downfall for him is in that scene I was talking about above when he says she doesn’t have to use him, she just has to ask—I think he needs to be more protective of being used by her in the triangle.

Daaaaang… we got a good ol’ fashioned feud a-goin’ on here!

In the end, though, I’m with jaz and all the cooler heads… I just had to stick up for Sawyer up there because… dog-gone it I like the feller. I see a bit of myself in him, I guess. No, my daddy didn’t kill my momma and then himself. But I loved my momma, too. And I don’t know what I’d have become if I’d lost her earlier than I did, or in a more violent way. No, I don’t like the dark turn he’s taken either, but I’m not surprised by it.

As for Jack… I can relate to his character also. He don’t mean to be pushing his will onto everyone else all the time. He just figures he’s going to be blamed for whatever happens whether he bosses folks around or not, so he might as well go on a-bossin’.

And John… I tell you what, when he said, “It’s never been easy…” I don’t think I ever related to any fictional character so much in my whole life. I feel for that man, too.

And don’t forget Sayid. That guy struggles with all the same things the other three do but with the kind of grace I only wish I could attain.

And Jin… he doesn’t just believe in the propriety of honor, but in the real deal. Honor that springs from love. Which is how, each episode, he can become a better man.

And Hurley… who in spite of the depression that leads to his weight problems might be the only one who actually has it all figured out… be decent to one another… and party on dudes!

And don’t even get me started on the late, great Charlie Pace.

It’s sad… but none of the female characters thus far have been developed to the degree that these gentlemen have. Not in my observation anyway.

Well, except maybe for Rose. She’s awesome.

Jaz…that’s really well done.

Prof…that too!

So many great points I dont know how to comment on all of them, but here goes: Jaz: You mention Saw’s vulnerability as his appeal. I was thinking of how men see other men and if a guy is gonna want Saw on his team, every man wants a wingman, not a threat but someone to assist. In other words I want to be quarterback and I really need a reciever to throw to. Saw would be that guy. He is willing to accept a ‘secondary’ role to my lead. I dont know if that makes sense but basically we all want to be the quarterback and we need a reciever. But guess who makes all the touchdowns? Right the wingman. Saw has seen that by taking the secondary role he can get what he wants without being the ‘quarterback’. Hope that makes sense to you because it does in my mind!

Thanks Arthur,

Nice descriptions of the Lost-men Prof, I was thinking along those lines myself this morning. I think the one addition I’d make in terms of reading those characters is that I can identify with both Locke and Jack, but I don’t see either one as a romantic figure (even though Jack is written that way to some extent in the triangle)—Somehow their roles as the heros/leaders of opposing sides (at least this is how I see them now) precludes that. Locke’s main romance is with the island; Jack’s driving force to save everyone—those things so dominate who they are.

Oh and let’s not forget Des—the man striving to become the best man he can be for the woman he loves.

O yeah tharde, well said.

Arthur: thank for the kind remarks, Honestly I dont mean to push anyones buttons, but I guess I certainly hit a nerve with this one.

ProfO: I must admit that Sawyer is a most likeable character, and your not the only one who roots for him, and can see themselves in his character. His appeal is that of the common man. Never in the spotlight, but kinda wanting a little glory, you know!? Hurley is in the same mold as Sawbucks, He is a commoner with the Anerican appeal. Dude! He plays the dumb role so very well. Never getiing taken seriously, but obviously alot smarter than anyone ever gives him credit for. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing, and I wouldnt be surprised to see him step to the plate as we saw him save the day by bringing the van to save the beach hostages. He would be the perfect snake in the mailbox as noone ever gives him any credit as a threat. The Sta-Puff man (Ghostbusters).

Jaz - that really would be a hard choice. Des or Sawyer? On the face of it Des is the better man BUT he turns his back on love which causes his predicament. Ah l’amour.

Tharde, big lol at the Marshmallow Man (uk name for him). Who you gonna call?

@ Annie this is what they want. They’ve sewn the seed of discord to make us vulnerable to attack!

But in all seriousness I just don’t ‘get’ Jack. He seems too much the perfectionist, always trying to save the day. I honestly think he does it out of a desire to be the best rather than in the best interests of those he leads. Remember when he is treating Boone? He is unable to make the right decision on his own because he wants to be the hero. Its up to Sun and then Boone to change his mind….

Jaz: what a great observation about Jack and Locke - as being unromantic figures. (Don’t let Paintgirl hear you say that!)

But what if … Helen …were to appear on the island (like Cooper did) do you think hair might grow back on Locke’s head? What I’m saying is, how would that possibly save John from spiraling down his current path opposite that of Jack?

I know we got off on a serious tangent on Sawyer, but I think tharde meant the discussion to be about multiple characters.

MrsSaw: Jack has the attitude of a warrior! Never give up, fight on till the end, I believe that the movie Braveheart, is just such an attitude, as well as the movie 300. No matter the odds you fight till the finish. This type of determination without regard for your own personal situation, is the ultimate sacrifice. I know that this type of attitude exists in many men and its a difficult concept to grasp. But its there none the less. I think that Jacks determination is a shadow of this concept.

Jaz: I also echo Arthur’s sentiment. Locke unromantic as is Jack is intriguing. Locke might change his attifude if Helen were still in the picture. All in all as far as Locke goes, he is devoted. He has loved and lost in regards to Helen. He seems to what a direction in his life, something to care for. He seems to want his life to have a profound “meaning”. When he joined the commune farm I think he just wanted to be a part of something good. Something above himself. I think this makes him admirable. Unselfish if you will.

Jack as unromantic verses Saw the bad boy very romantic, Interesting indeed.

Arthur, thanks for your kind words. Much appreciated. :-)

“might gow hair back on Locke’s head” LOL

Helen-Locke-the Island, now that’s an interesting triangle. I wonder if Ben has thought of that as a distraction? Seriously, at this point I don’t think Helen would stand a chance.

I was going there too. If Ben wanted to, he could pull Helen out of “the black box” and really rock Locke’s world. It might even take all the sting out of the old guy.

Would Helen be able to survive? Well, she survived Al Bundi, so that’s saying something ;-) something tells me Helen is tougher than we give her credit for.

I heard that!……..

Man, I can’t believe I forgot about Desmond! The man searching for his honor in a very classic sense.

Yeah tharde, I agree with your comparison to heroes in stories like the 300. Jack is more like the main character in a traditionally masculine story than in a romance. His most important conflict growing up is with his Dad; his most important relationships on the island, I think, are actually with the other men—primarily with Sayid, Locke, and Ben. He doesn’t see the women as resources but as vulnerabilities (most noticeable with Kate but also with Claire). I think that attitude and his need to close himself off—to be as strong as he can in order to be the leader—makes it difficult for any romance to develop.

Look I sorta see where you are coming from…however I am a big romantic and I like my perspective more… :)

Remember the scene where Sawyer and Juliet go off together and Sawyer didn’t want Kate to go with him. Jack defended Sawyer’s reasons for not wanting her to go - He said he was trying to protect her. Then Kate asked Jack, “Why are you defending Sawyer? He’d never do it for!” Jack paused a moment and then answered, “Because… I love you!” (sigh) HELLO???!!! That melted my heart when he said that!!! And that is the romantic Jack that I love!

Desmond and Sayid are great romantic characters too!! I wish Sayid had a love interest on the show…He was fun to watch when he was flirting with Shannon!! :)

*How about Ben? Annie could return and we could see a whole other side to Benjamin… LOL!

What about Juliet and Sayid?

…Rousseau and Locke….LOL

Paintgirl, lol—that could be Locke’s countermove. I’ll see your Helen and raise you an Annie.

BTW I don’t mean to impy that Jack doesn’t love Kate. I like the way Jack clearly interprets Sawyer’s actions there because he can identify with him. It does make me wonder again whether Sawyer also will be moving out of the romantic role.

Paintgirl: thanks for conjuring up that wonderful image of Ben’s “side.”

Rousseau and Sayid - that’s got an interesting twist. Maybe that’s why the French didn’t want to get involved….

Locke and…….and…….and……

sorry, counter got to zero before I could come up with a match for the Great White Mongoose. Need to go turn the key now - system failure.

Arthur: LOL! …..mongoose!

Jaz: lol! With that analogy…it makes me wonder, how would it affect Ben and the way he plays the “game”- if his beloved Annie was involved.

But Annie is his reason for playing the game in the first place!!! Ben doenst care what honestly happens to the island. His motivation is his reunion with his beloved Annie. Remember Ben is without a doubt a Taker!

Whoa tharde. Help me with that one. “Ben’s motivation is his reunion with his beloved Annie.”

How do you propose he is going to pull that off?

ProfO - Sayid the classic romantic. I would tend to agree, but why isnt he seen as a sex symbol even more so than Sawyer, Is it because he isnt as beautiful as Saw? What then would spark such a fire from the women? Sayid is willing to give of himself entirely, and is the classic romantic role model, isn’t he? We always hear that the romance is the most important thing in a relationship. Why then are physical attributes, which are more of Sawyers department, more appealing. Maybe its not the romance that women crave but the physical attributes.

Arthur- Yeah after I wrote that I realized that was out there a bit.. Ben has a seemihg hidden agenda. I think that much of his motivation comes from his either memories or lost love of his childhood sweetheart. Whether or not its a possibility if seemed to motive Ben and integrate itself within his decisions. Love interests to Ben are quite a quandry. Is he still holding a torch for Annie. Or is he grieving the loss of his soulmate. I guess time will tell on that. My statement was that he still has isssues to resolve himself and Annie is very much a part of that.

In other words Arthur, his decisions are seemingly based on what is good for him. Selfish taker that he is.

Tharde… dude… I have NO clue why Sawyer more than any other character brings the ire out in many of the ladies on this forum. I can only surmise that this forum attracts a certain kind of woman and that most of these women find they date Sayid types. There’s no mystery in his character. But Sawyer is the guy they always avoided, but were curious about.

Yeah, that was probably the biggest load of BS I ever unloaded right there. But it was a shot.

ProfO Well I must admit that didnt help much, because this mysterious type guy attraction just seems to be the exact opposite that women claim to want. What is the deal ?

Tharde5: You really feel strongly about this Sawyer and Sayid issue…. I can see what you are saying, but let me give a girl’s perspective.

I can’t speak for every girl…but I’ve ALWAYS found Sayid attractive- Physically AND for his character qualities! (Which you mentioned earlier) And I am sure there are A LOT of women that feel the same. Not every girl is a die hard Sawyer fan.

*And I would also like to say that out of all the “Die hard Sawyer Fans” - not all of them like him strictly b/c he his HOT! There are certain aspects to Sawyer’s personality and character that make him endearing, charming, and child like…. Based on his personality- Sawyer is very very likable!! SOOO, although there are women out there that love Sawyer for his looks…..I think more like him for the whole package….. :)

well, again speaking up from the xy corner (but according to what ProfO says above my experiences are not typical)…

but tharde, Sayid, not attractive? I don’t know if one can separate out the physical from the character, but Sayid was definitely the first guy I thought was attractive on the show. Sawyer…I had to actually get to know his character a bit more.

And, I think I’ve dated at least one person who was rather Sawyer like, but I’ve never dated anyone like Sayid.

ahh correction, tharde, I overstated your position. I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t think it’s completely accurate to say that Sawyer is more the eye candy than Sayid is. But again, I’m not sure one can separate out attractive qualities so discretely into the physical and the personal traits.

Also as a general comment, I don’t think the “leaping to Sawyer’s defense” faction is really about his looks—the guy gets so beat up on already, I think he’s got a certain section of the audience ready to go to bat for him.

Yeah, what jaz said.

I imagine another reason everyone always talks about Jack and Sawyer all the time is that they’re the ones in the love triangle. Put Sayid and Hurley in a love triangle and people would talk about THEM endlessly.

Or you can go with my completely made-up “Mars vs. Venus” explanation I offered above.

I’m having one of those days.

I totally agree jaz…..Sawyer brings out the protective instinct.

And Sayid is totally hot!!!

Red-blooded American Woman here….. Sawyer puts his “sexiness” out there all the time. He is constantly posturing. Low-hanging fruit is easy to pick. Zero challenge….Totally turns me off. His playfulness…..now that takes talent and a certain spirit !! That makes him attractive

And as far as his troubled existance being blamed on Cooper and thus justified. I think that misplaced aggression. His mother is the one to blame. She’s the one who committed the crime against the family. Cooper is a bad guy but would have been powerless against a woman who valued her family more than her sex drive. So that in itself might be a huge conflict that is almost unfathomable to a man….rejection by the mother (that is deeper than any daddy issues)…..he focuses on Cooper but it was his mother that ruined his life.

Shell….I never thought of that. Excellent point.

Yeah, shell… awesome…

Ok, Ok, I’m a little slow but I think those explainations made perfect sense to me. Basically he is a flirting god and I get that. Its makes more sense that his playful nature(flirting) is endearing. He is quite suave and that makes quite a difference. Being able to converse with the opposite sex and make a game of it, he does seem gifted in that aspect. As far as the beating he has taken would most certainly made him “one of the guys, and respected by the male viewing audience.

jaz: Sawyer mother