Where on Earth is the Island now?! (updated through season 4)
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By you_know_the_name
- Where on Earth is the Island now?! (updated through season 4)
- Created: Aug 3, 2007
- Last updated: Aug 13, 2008
- After episode: 3.22: Through The Looking Glass
- Status: Current
- Flags: Debunked
- Flag this theory:
Hello everyone! To celebrate the return of Lost, I decided to edit my theory to include the latest established facts, arguments against this theory and my counter-arguments to support it.
I would like to especially thank all parties who helped contribute to this theory in ways large and small. Hopefully we’ll finally get some definitive answers this season to finally prove or disprove my theory once and for all.
In any case, it’s been a real pleasure :)
Feb 10 note - This theory is now being updated through season 4. Please scroll to the bottom of the theory for the new info…
May 10 note - As of the latest revelation in S04E11 - Cabin Fever, I have decided to rename my theory… for obvious reasons…
I’ve tried my best to keep my long, deductive logical argument easy to follow…
In my opinion, one of the weirdest pieces of dialogue offered in the “Pilot” episode was in fact given by Oceanic 815’s pilot.
He says “6 hours in. Our radio went out, no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 plane, even with the aid of the sun? My answer = the pilot was lying (as is Cindy, hence telling Jack at the Hydra in Season 3 what was happening is “complicated”). If they were traveling west all along, the survivors wouldn’t have been aware of the change in course, or the abrupt change of day. However, how could Oceanic 815 reach the east coast of Africa (presuming the Swan’s time stamp was accurate) in 8 hours? Even so, this was certainly more logical than a beechcraft with a range of around 1000 miles ending up in the Pacific! But, as I mentioned before, the beechcraft seemed to be heading towards the Sahara, away from the coast.
In my quest for the truth, I learned of the pseudoscientific theory of Vile Vortices— twelve Bermuda Triangle-like areas distributed more or less evenly around the globe (there’s an article on wikipedia if you are interested). My research also led me to http://www.deepinfo.com/WorldGrid.htm, which provides a map of 10 of the triangular vortices (the 2 missing ones are at the north and south poles). At last, I had a theoretical framework to explain my beliefs.
The theory: The 12 Vile Vortices have the ability to teleport objects (be it ships, subs, planes, balloons, and helicopters) to the island, which exists in its own bubble of space-time thanks to its natural casimir effect. The true location of the island is in the Indian Ocean, in one of the Vortices in the southern hemisphere just off the coast of Eastern Africa.
The pilot (part of a larger conspiracy) flew his plane west over Australia skirting the northern coast instead of crossing over the mainland. Why he would do so is still unanswered, but Naomi’s testimony corroborates my observation. She says the wreckage of Oceanic 815 was found off the coast of Bali, which is north of Australia, and NOT in the Pacific Ocean! Accidentally or purposely, the plane ends up in the Vortex west of Australia (as opposed to the eastern one near Fiji), and is subsequently transported to the island. On the other hand, Yemi’s beechcraft was heading north towards the Sahara Desert, but enters the Sahara Vortex and ends up at the island.
Other minor observations lend credibility to this theory. Desmond says the island is about 350 miles from Tahiti. Desmond believes the island is a week east of Fiji at 9 knots. Danielle Rousseau said they were 3 days out of Tahiti when they wrecked on the island. In the case of the Black Rock, according to traders on Papua New Guinea, the ship sailed away from port in an Easterly direction, rather than West to Africa (This is from the ARG game “The Lost Experience”). These 3 vessels could have ended up in the Fiji Vortex, “teleporting” them to the island.
The theory holds up if one is to believe the only way to track the exact location of the island is to be near or around another Vortex. For example, the “listening station” at the end of Season 2 could theoretically be at the North Pole, Antarctica or the Himalayas (all three are Vortex sites). This could also explain why Naomi’s satellite phone’s signal acquisition looked to be coming from near the western coast of the USA—a Vortex lies off the coast. Furthermore, Juliet and Anthony Cooper could have arrived to the island via submarine through the Vortex off the coast of Florida (aka the Bermuda Triangle).
Many theorists have speculated that the numbers 4 8 15 16 23 42 may be the coordinates of the island. Instead of joining the numbers together as most have done (ie.4.815 S latitude and 162.342 W longitude), I decided to take a different approach. I logically assumed that each number was either a degree, minute or second on a standard coordinate grid.
If we take the latitude to be 4 degrees, 8 minutes, 15 seconds South, and longitude as 16 degrees, 23 minutes, 42 seconds West, we end up somewhere in the South Atlantic, between Africa and South America. Changing the longitude to East, we end up in a position somewhere over Africa. These were inconsistent with my theory.
However, I then wondered if the numbers should be reversed. There have been numerous themes in Lost about mirrors or reversals (ie through the looking glass, reversal of fortune on the island etc). What IF we reversed the sequence of numbers? Instead of 4 8 15 16 23 42, how about if it were 24 32 61 51 8 4?
I understand that this is now wild speculation, but what if we were to plug in the coordinates as 24 degrees, 32 minutes, 6.1 seconds South Latitude, and 51 degrees, 8 minutes, 4 seconds East Longitude?
Hey presto = you get a location, just off the eastern coast of Africa and Madagascar, in the Indian Ocean. This is exactly where the East Africa Vortex is located, consistent with my theory!
Compare the world grid map, http://www.deepinfo.com/WorldGrid.htm to my theoretical location of the Island via Google Maps (just type in those coordinates!)
Based on later insights, I discovered the following –
1) If the Island’s location is off the coast of Madagascar, just south of Reunion and Mauritius Islands (as shown in the map above), it will fall into the +4 GMT Time Zone. Oceanic 815 presumably crashed near Fiji, which is +12 GMT, exactly 8 hours apart! If they crashed on the island at 4.16 pm island time (in the Indian Ocean), it would be 12.16 am Sept 23 in Fiji, and 10.16 pm in Sydney (+10 GMT). If the plane departed at 2.15 pm, it would have been in the air for 8 hrs and 1 minute before it crashed (which makes the 8 hrs of flight time established in the canon).
2) If the Indian Ocean location is correct, its closest neighbors would be the islands of Reunion and Mauritius. Looking both up on wikipedia, I discovered some interesting facts. -The islands are geographically similar to Hawaii. Together with Réunion and Rodrigues, Mauritius is part of the Mascarene Islands. This archipelago was formed in a series of undersea volcanic eruptions, as the African plate drifted over the Réunion hotspot. Mauritius and Rodrigues were formed 8-10 million years ago. They are no longer volcanically active, and the hotspot now rests under Réunion. -The local climate is tropical, modified by southeast trade winds; there is a warm, dry winter from May to November and a hot, wet, and humid summer from November to May. Cyclones affect the country during November-April. - The island is well known for its exceptional natural beauty; “You gather the idea that Mauritius was made first and then heaven, and that heaven was copied after Mauritius”, as Mark Twain noted in Following the Equator. - Reunion Island was first discovered by the Portuguese, and later colonized by the French.
3) Using the US Naval Observatory’s Sunrise/Sunset calculator, and setting it to December 18 2004, with the coordinates 24 deg 32 min South and 51 deg 8 min East, gives a sunrise time of 5.42 am, consistent with the amount of daylight at 6 am in the episode DOC.
4) Naomi NEVER mentions the country/land her search and rescue team came from, only saying that she was stationed on a vessel 80 miles off-shore (The Brig). For all we know, her vessel could be as far away as the West Coast of the USA, hence the signal received by her phone.
5) Many theorists have speculated the 4-toed-statue has a Greek connection. As evidenced by the Periplus Map, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PeriplusMap.jpg which charts the known early Greek Trade Routes, they journeyed as far south as Raphta, East Africa. It’s not too much of a stretch to assume they journeyed further south, around Madagascar, to the Island…
6) Some of you may wonder, “If the daylight can be explained by them not actually heading east but west, why didn’t anyone notice that “hey we’re heading towards the sun” when they knew the sun should have been behind them going towards LA?”
I’ve been on extremely long flights (17-18hrs one way!). After about the first few hours, I usually lose track of time, as we’d be flying into different time zones and crossing the International Date Line.
All this is now hypothetical, but maybe someone DID notice they were traveling in the wrong direction, but were conveniently lied to by Cindy or the other flight crew. Shouldn’t you trust them, who’ve traveled the route regularly? Then, before they could tell the others, they DIED.
Remember, out of the 324 passengers and crew of Oceanic 815, only 71 initially survived (72 including Vincent). If we were to assume that the Pilot and Cindy were lying, ONLY 69 passengers were confirmed “clueless” about the plane’s direction. 69/324 = 21.3%, or 1/5 of the passengers didn’t know or couldn’t care less at the time.
Also, there definitely isn’t any astronomer or meteorologist on the island at present, as he/she would have tried to determine the island’s position using the constellations and other sky-related techniques…
7) A friend brought up a very interesting point about the location of the sun in the pilot episode. If the sun was seen in the right window, they would appear to be heading south.
But consider my original hypothesis - Oceanic 815 was heading around the Australian landmass, and towards the Western Australia Vortex. On a map, you’ll see the plane had to turn SOUTH to accomplish this. Only then was the plane “transported” to the island, presumably in the South Indian Ocean.
Furthermore, I just rewatched the prologue of “A Tale of Two Cities.” When the plane breaks up over the island, the shadows suggest that the plane was coming in from a southeast angle.
Here’s a further tidbit, remember how Ben told Michael to head out at an angle of 325 degrees to leave the island. If you reverse that for coming in, you’ll have to do so at an angle of 145 degrees. And guess what? That is a bearing of south-south-east, consistent with my theory!
Counter-points?
Conspiracy vs. Cloned Plane due to casimir effect
“Confirmed Dead” and the Find 815 ARG pretty much confirmed the plane found at the bottom of the Sunda Trech was indeed a hoax. There must be some sort of conspiracy going on, which I’m certain will be unravelled in later episodes (also see the Maxwell Group, a division of Widmore Industries in the Find 815 ARG).
For all intents and purposes in my discussion and theory, there was only 1 true plane crash - the island crash. This fact further establishes my theory, as the Sunda Trench is quite a distance away from the West Australian Vortex (Which I believe Oceanic 815 flew into). There would be no reason for a “cloned” plane to end up so far away from the Vortex location.
Actually, I wonder if the flight from Sydney to Bali is around 6 hours? That would be consistent with the time the pilot said they lost radio communications. As for the different flight path, somebody in Australia’s aviation authority could have been bought off (I mean, Richard managed to have a bus kill Juliet’s husband just as she imagined it, right?).
Bermuda Triangle Theory debunked?
I’m certain the writers haven’t completely debunked the Bermuda triangle connections all-together. The island is NOT in the Bermuda Triangle after all, so they told us the truth-from a certain point of view.
This seems similar to what they said about time-travel in the conventional sci-fi sense. Although there are no time-machines per se, the island managed to make Desmond jump back through time, and make bunny 15 in the orchid station to appear in 2 places at once…
North versus South?
Here’s just another little tidbit to suggest that The Island is indeed in the southern hemisphere.
I recently reviewed Season 3’s DOC. When Juliet and Sun come out of the Staff Station, dawn is breaking. Then, Juliet goes back in to deliver a voice message to Ben. She says it is six am saturday morning. Since it is day 88 on the island, this morning would correspond to the real-world date of December 18 2004.
Being close to the Winter Solstice (Dec 22), I would assume there won’t be that much daylight if they were in the Northern Hemisphere. I live near the equator, and dawn doesn’t break until around 6.30 am every day.
The Island in a Space-time distortion?
This is just to expand on the idea that the island is physically on Earth but has a space-time distortion…
Lets assume Particle A has a half-life of 1 minute. Particle A exists on Earth, as it’s in a particle accelerator. Particle A is accelerated to 60% the speed of light. Einstein’s special theory of relativity comes into play at those speeds; hence a localized space-time distortion occurs. To the casual observer, Particle A lives longer, as it appears to now have a half-life of 1.25 minutes (I’m not making these numbers up. Read about time dilation). In this way, Particle A still exists in our universe (and our dimension), but experiences the world differently because of this space-time distortion.
Now, I’m not suggesting the island is moving extremely fast. There are other ways to distort the fabric of space-time—including the presence of a large gravitational field. But let’s not forget that the electromagnetic force is 10^37 times stronger than gravity…
The Island = Atlantis?
What if the Island is supposed to be a creative retelling of the Atlantis myth?
I looked up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Location_hypothesesofAtlantis, and learned there are currently no modern theories that place Atlantis in the Indian Ocean.
However, one must consider this - In Ancient Greek times the terms “Ocean” and “Atlas” both referred to the ‘Giant Water’ which surrounded the main landmass known at that time by the Greeks, which could be described as ‘Africa-Eurasia’ (although this whole super continent was far from completely known to the Ancient Greeks), and thus this water mass was considered to be the ‘end of the (known) world’, for the same reason the name “Atlas” was given to the mountains near the Ocean, the Atlas Mountains, as they also denoted the ‘end of the (known) world’. So when Plato spoke of the Ocean of Atlantis it might also have been outside what we know today as the Atlantic Ocean.
By that account, the Indian Ocean would have fallen into the same body of water, as it borders Eastern Africa and South Asia. It could be why the writers made a creative decision to place the island there rather than in the Pacific, which “may not have existed” to the Greeks…
Why would the numbers in the equation match up in any way whatsoever with a coordinate system which was designated in a completely arbitrary manner? If international agreement had set the 0 meridian in Minsk instead of Greenwich, would the numbers in the equation change? This is nonsense.
The numbers were not designated in a completely arbitrary manner by me. As I have reasoned above, I substituted the numbers in reverse (reversibility/opposites being a prominent theme on the show) according to the standard correspondences of degree, minute, and second to come up with my theoretical location.
The writers ALSO did not designate these numbers in a completely arbitrary manner. There is plenty out there on the significance of the numbers 4 8 15 16 23 42 that cover the entire span of human history and knowledge, be it in mathematics, historical references, religion and yes (squirm), numerology.
We also know that the numbers feature significantly on the show. Is it really so irrational to assume they could help with determining the island’s location too?
Furthermore, if I were a Lost writer and knew that the 0 meridian was set to Minsk instead of Greenwich, I’d keep the numbers the same. BUT when I plug the numbers into the coordinate system like I did - Hey Presto! That’s where I would place my “lost island”. In my opinion, we shouldn’t view the picture from the wrong angle. It’s not about suiting the numbers to the coordinates of the island (Akin to numerology). It’s about suiting the coordinates of the island to the numbers!
Shooting in the dark is difficult. Hence, the crash took place in daylight. Nothing more…
I Agree shooting that scene in the dark would have been impossible, or at the least, extremely difficult.
However, we KNOW they crashed in daylight in the pilot episode. NO other established fact was give to us aside from the plane was 8 hours into the flight (this from the pilot). Only later did we find out the plane departed Sydney at 2.15 pm, and crashed on the island at 4.16 pm.
Please consider this hypothesis…
If I were a writer and wanted to keep the story simple and clear cut, I would have the plane crash in broad daylight at 4.16 pm (this corresponds to the Pearl Station reading) at +12 GMT (Fiji Time). 8 hours of flight time would mean Flight 108 departed Sydney at 6.15 am local time (+10 GMT) or 8.15 am Fiji Time, instead of the established 2.15 pm. There you go. They are both daylight solutions. If I thought 6.15 am was too early a flight for my losties to catch, as a writer I could easily bump up the departure time to 7.15 am and have them crash at 5.16 pm, taking into account these times were only to be revealed in later episodes.
I hope you understand the point I’m making here. I believe the discrepancies exist for a reason, and not as an error on the writers or producers parts…
Vile-vortices and Teleportation are not real. Stop talking crap!
Although I admittedly categorize vile-vortices as pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo with the addition of teleportation, it does weave the evidence we have garnered so far into a comprehensive theoretical framework. I challenge you (and anybody else) to solve this mystery without resorting to vile vortices and teleportation. And bad writing or shooting conveniences should be out of the question…
From a truly scientific viewpoint, my theory can be considered highly improbable (certainly not illogical), but it does not add unnecessary layers of magic (teleportation exists in a quantum mechanical framework, but I’d be the last person to suggest we expand it to a macro-world viewpoint in reality).
I am a very strong skeptic. But let us remember that this is a tv show called lost, and everything we see on the show should not be taken as completely 100% real and how the world could and should work.
Thus, you have a team of (in my opinion) brilliant writers who try and incorporate everything they can (be it scientific, pseudoscientific, or even totally “out there”) into an intricate framework which exhibits a certain resemblance of order. That being said, I don’t think we are supposed to see the show in a linear, completely truistic manner. We should open our minds and suspend disbelief for a moment and allow the possibility for the “weirdness” on Lost to exist in its own universe. Some people see things the way they are and ask “why?” Others dream of things that never were and ask “why not?”
In my humble opinion, nothing we have seen so far contradicts the evidence I have presented, IF you would be open-minded enough to allow the supernatural (in this case vile vortices and teleportation) to exist in the Lost Universe.
Season Four Updates.
Three important clues are revealed in the episode “Confirmed Dead” to lend credence to this theory.
Firstly, newcomer Daniel Faraday, a physicist, notices that the light on the island “doesn’t scatter quite right” on the island. If the island exists in it’s own space-time bubble as my theory predicts, Daniel’s observation makes sense.
Next comes the mysterious polar bear skeleton found by Charlotte in Tunisia. According to my theory, a reasonable, simple explanation goes like this - Dharma was conducting zoological research at the Hydra. An order was placed for Polar Bears. A cargo plane carrying crates containing polar bears (remember the collar embedded with the Hydra logo she finds?) tries to reach the island via the Sahara Desert Vortex, but one crate misses the target and lands in the desert. The unfortunate polar bear, stranded without food or water, dies, while its companions (at least two of them) end up on the island. Mystery solved?
Btw, the Sahara Desert vortex is the same entry point Yemi’s beechcraft could have used to arrive at the island. As stated far above, please recall the direction the plane travels in Eko’s flashback, and the crates labelled “Sahara” that Boone finds prior to his death…
Furthermore, we may be closer to the truth regarding the plane wreckage discovered in the Sunda Trench. It’s almost certainly a hoax by “higher powers” aka Widmore/Paik/Hanso/Vik Institute/Dharma et al. The location of the Sunda Trench relative to Sydney confirms that the plane was indeed travelling in a westerly direction. If my theory is right, Oceanic 815 was teleported to the island via the West Australian vortex (and not the one near Fiji), clearly explaining the continuous daylight in the pre-crash, crash and post-crash scenes.
“The Economist” lends further credibility to this apparently “debunked” theory. For my theory to work, I postulated that the island sits in its own region of space-time separate from the world as we know it, and is connected to us (the world) via the 12 vile vortices. If Daniel Faraday’s experiment is correct, the island is currently experiencing a time dilation of a little over 31 minutes. This confirms the island is in its own warped space-time buble.
Furthermore, just as Ben had instructed Michael to leave the island at a bearing of 325 degrees, Daniel reminds Frank to leave in the exact same direction they flew in - lending strength to my belief that the island can only be approached/left via a certain portal (ie teleportation zone).
In “Eggtown,” Jack is called up as a witness in Kate’s trial. There, he says that they were rescued from “an island in the South Pacific.”
To those who would consider this theory debunked because of this statement, please also recall Jack said the plane crashed in the Ocean; there were 8 crash survivors, but 2 didn’t make it; Kate was a hero by saving them all; and he used to love Kate, but not anymore…
One factual statement in a web of lies? I don’t think so…
In “The Constant,” the helicopter heads out on an exact bearing of 305 degrees…into a sudden “storm cloud.” When it clears, the helicopter approaches the freighter - apparently in a different time zone!
I find this, along with the time discrepency between events off and on-island, as convincing evidence that the island exists in it’s own bubble of space-time. The “storm cloud” and turbulence represents the boundry in which objects should approach in only a certain direction (or succumb to severe disorientation, flashes before ones eyes, or ending up in an unwanted point in space-time)
In “The Shape Of Things To Come,” Benjamin mysteriously appears in the Sahara Desert. If this is not evidence for teleportation, I don’t know what will be. Why the Sahara Desert? Perhaps because it’s one of the 12 vortex sites, maybe? Polar Bear skeleton and/or Yemi’s Beechcraft anybody?
In “Cabin Fever,” the apparition of Christian Shepard, speaking on behalf of Jacob, instructs Locke to MOVE the island.
If teleportation is not the means by which this impossible feat is accomplished, I’ll gladly eat the bug of WillsDad’s choosing oh-so-long-ago (read the comments for more…)
Key characters
| Short Name | Full Name | Episodes | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|
| Anthony | Anthony Cooper | 174 | |
| Cindy | Cindy the Flight Attendant | 2.7 | 94 |
| Desmond | Desmond David Hume | 2.23, 3.17, 4.5 | 804 |
| Juliet | Juliet Burke | 3.7, 3.16, 4.6 | 318 |
| Naomi | Naomi Dorrit | 171 |
Key episodes
| # | Title | Aired | Central character | Theories |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2.7 | The Other 48 Days | 11-16-2005 | Eko, Ana-Lucia, Libby, Bernard, Cindy | 87 |
| 1.23 | Exodus: Part 1 | 5-18-2005 | Jin | 98 |
| 1.19 | Deus Ex Machina | 3-30-2005 | John | 94 |
| 1.2 | Pilot, Part 2 | 9-29-2004 | Kate, Charlie | 192 |
| 1.1 | Pilot, Part 1 | 9-24-2004 | Jack | 335 |
I would have to say that i am actually in agreement with you! It has been stated before, by myself and others, and is important to say again, that if you put the the mysterious numbers from the outside of the hatch into google earth and do a search, the location that it gives you is in the middle of the vortice known as, “the devils triangle.”
Wow… A great read and well put. I like this explanation for how all of the different vessels wound up on the island. But I still don’t believe that there are two flight 815s. I think that Naiomi was lying.
In a word, Brilliant!!!! +1
No it was not too long!!! It was a great read and as Dab said “Brilliant” +1 from me also!!
I loved reading it. I loved the theory.
Welcome aboard, so to speak!
Excellent theory.
There’s been a lot of discussion about this, and I think most everyone agrees that based on the pilot’s comments, the crash time @ 4:16 pm on September 22, 2004 doesn’t add up! Fiji is only two time zones east of Sydney (GMT +12.) However, one possibility is that the original crash time was recorded in GMT time, not local time. Ironically, 4:16 am GMT = 4:16 pm in Fiji. Nevertheless, if the plane was in the air 8 hours as the pilot suggested, as you’ve pointed out, the math doesn’t add up!
Anyway, the island’s location is the one of the real mysteries, and the “east-west” thing has been discussed in detail. Having said that, I really like your comments on the vortice. This seems like an excellent way to explain some of the time and distance inconsistencies with both flight 815 and Yemi’s beechcraft.
Excellent theory; very well written. +1
One question, in your theory, are there still two different and separate crash sites for 815?
Personally I think the island was just in real world hidden by the magnetic anomaly and signals blocked by the LookingGlass Hatch, but your theory is certainly very convincing and just as likely. But didn’t he writers debunk any bermuda triangle connections early on in series 1?
Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
I’m still going with the conspiracy concept (ie the other plane crash in Bali was an elaborate hoax by the DI/Widmore/Paik). The casimir effect theories sound interesting, but it wouldn’t explain why the “clone” plane ended up near Bali instead of further west of Australia, closer to the Vortice.
Actually, I wonder if the flight from Sydney to Bali is around 6 hours? That would be consistent with the time the pilot said they lost radio communications. As for the different flight path, somebody in Australia’s aviation authority could have been bought off (I mean, Richard managed to have a bus kill Juliet’s husband just as she imagined it, right?).
I’m uncertain if the writers debunked the bermuda triangle connections all-together. The island is NOT in the Bermuda Triangle after all, so they told us the truth-from a certain point of view.
This seems similar to what they said about time-travel in the conventional sci-fi sense. Altough there are no time-machines per se, the island managed to make Desmond jump back through time, and make bunny 15 in the orchid station to appear in 2 places at once…
or some ahole got confused and branded two rabbits with the same number, maybe that was the incident and everyone was confused b.c they had 2 #15 rabbits.
wow i must say u certainly did ur research this theory is pretty strong +1 from me i got into this now n i think u might be correct maybe the pilot did lie..what if the pilot was someone from the others??maybe that is why the episodes called the pilot another thing i went through the vile vertices and i did something but i culdnt reallly do anything coz i haven done much research but i thought maybe it wuld help u in ur research i took thelost numbers and connected them with the vertices 4. Lake Baikal, N. Mongolia; unique 3/4 of plants, animals & soil (1000 species), megaliths (Meteor Crater?)(yin)
Buffalo Lake, Alberta, Canada; major concentration of medicine wheels (yin
Midway Island (balanced)
N.E. of Hawaiian islands; d (yang /diamond)
Chagos archipelago (yin)
Intersection of Mid-Indian and Southwest Indian Ridges (balanced)
i hope it helps u somehow…now i checked out latitued 4.815 and longitude 162.342it is approx the midpoint of the triangle formed between triangles 14,43 and 45 http://www.deepinfo.com/WorldGrid.htm#himalayas for the map
anyways hope it helps u develop ur theory
check out http://www.tvsquad.com/2005/10/04/lost-not-so-lost-after-all/
that would mean that the closest island from where there are is Kusaie.
Here are some pictures of Kusaie, that looks a bit like the Island yes. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/265517 http://www.panoramio.com/photo/265851
Well done. Very well written. +1
Well done. I agree totally but would like to add the following, given that “everything happens for a reason” and everything is not as it seems”
With a bit of artistic license I put the island inthe Indian Ocean, based on the early Greek trade route to India as per the Periplus map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PeriplusMap.jpg
The Greeks also settled in India - Graeco-Indian Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks
All of this would nicely explain the temple and the Greek statue’s four toed foot..
I like this! Great thinking!! Great research!! +1
I just found this on Lostipedia…this has been covered there pretty well.
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/VileVortices(theory)
One more thing…another cool site.
http://users.pandora.be/wouterhagens/biogeometry/detailsgrid_uk.html
Just another thought, the characters Naomi Dorrit and Richard Alpert certainly look like they come from the Southern European/Graeco-Indian area - as I said earlier, in Lost, everything happens for a reason.
Also the pilot of 815, actor Greg Grunberg is now well known through his spot in Heroes, wondering whether we will see him back ?
I doubt that we’ll be seeing Greg Grunberg back again. He did die a rather horrible death by Smokey in the first season and in real life he has a pretty good gig in Heroes.
He is also well known for his role on Alias, another JJ Abrams show.
Hey guys,
Just another little tidbit to suggest that The Island is indeed in the southern hemisphere.
Just rewatched Season 3’s DOC yesterday. When Juliet and Sun come out of the Staff Station, DAWN IS breaking. Then, Juliet goes back in to deliver a voice message to Ben. She says it is SIX AM Saturday morning. Since it is day 88 on the island, this morning would correspond to the real-world date of December 18 2004.
Being close to the Winter Solstice (Dec 22), I would assume there won’t be that much daylight if they were in the Northern Hemisphere. I live near the equator, and dawn doesn’t break until around 6.30 am every day.
Just a thought…
I’m right there with you, yktn. I’ve asked these same questions many times and you have my gratitude for coming up with such a well thought out and well stated theory. Well done!
nice question, I am sure we could find out the exact time of the sunrise for the day in question. i think its going to be btn 6-7 in the northern hemisphere, but that is based on experience not on scientific fact.
I watched something on the discovery channel about white/black holes and immediately thought of lost…but I never would have been able to put it all together as eloquently as you. VERY nice! I love this post.+1
I posted this point elsewhere and now I’m realizing it’ll be pertinent here…
Recall that shortly before the crash Jack was looking out his window and it was daylight. Why didn’t Jack or anyone else looking out their windows wonder why it wasn’t dark? It should have been dark then also, not just when the plane crashed.
Someone is bound to wonder about this eventually. I’m guessing Claire, as she’s the only one so far who has been introduced as having some “celestial” knowledge.
Hey again,
If you note my August 6th update above, my theoretical island location seems to be off the east coast of Madagascar, in the Indian Ocean.
Using Google Earth, I learned that the Theoretical Lost Island would be close to 2 islands - Reunion and Mauritius.
I then looked up both islands in Wikipedia. Especially interesting is the fact that the islands are geographically similar to Hawaii, located near or on a volcanic region, were first discovered by the Portugese, and later colonized by the French.
Interesting to say the least…
Very interesting. Nice job.
Wow you know the name!
If this is NOT the definitive answer to the whereabouts of the Island, it SHOULD be!
Lost writers who frequent this site, please take note…
Great job!
Thanks for the support, guys!
I added a couple more things to the theory in two updates today. The evidence appears to be building…
Interesting. See my theory on the flight crew being part of the conspiracy where I discuss why what the pilot says makes no sense. Also, while the pilot says they diverted to fiji, Cindy says they “turned back”, suggesting they had trouble keeping the details of the fabricated story straight. So I definitely agree that the flight crew brought them there deliberately and had a cover story.
So I suppose you would say Juliet came in through the Bermuda triangle vortex near Florida and not quite in Portland could be a reference to the vortex in the North Pacific. What about the reference to Canada. Is that a euphemism for the north pole? I don’t think there are any polar bears as far north as where that vortex is located. I think a lot of people have surmised that there must be singularities or portals but I like the idea of connecting their location to a well known conspiracy theory, like the number 23.
I’m not sure I follow why the island needs to be located near where you say. It seems to me the point is that there are entry points from all over the globe and people from various locations and times have ended up there. Hence the variety of technology —19th century sailing trips, 20th century computers, bridge of san luis reyes style rope bridge, post war radio towers — that are encountered. But it could be anywhere. Maybe ancient greeks landed on it but if it were part of a greek trading route I think there would be more evidence than just the remaining statute. I buy the idea that the island is somehow outside of normal space time,. but if so then doesn’t that make its actual physical location unknowable and unimportant.
Dear tman42,
I don’t know how Canada fits in, or even that it’s supposed to. But if they were supposed to be somewhere on the West Coast, they’d be close to the North Pacific Vortex. The 11th and 12th vortices are supposed to be located at both the North and South Poles respectively. However, there’s nothing to suggest that the DI used the North Pole Vortex to transport the Polar Bears. They could have done it the conventional way…by boat or by plane.
There may be more evidence of the Greek Ruins - the temple in Season 4 perhaps? Also, they could have been destroyed by either the “hostiles” or Dharma…And the Greeks who might have landed there may have done so by accident, and never left. Could their decendants be some of the longer-living hostiles (aka Richard)? There’s nothing to discredit this yet.
The island does not need to be where I say it it is. However, all the evidence attained so far seems to suggest that it’s in the Indian Ocean. Putting it another way, if the island is in a fixed location somewhere on Earth (and I don’t see why not, since island-moving theories sound extremely far-fetched, even for Lost), it might be off the coast of Africa.
Although the island might be outside our normal space-time, I believe that it still has a physical presence in the real world. What I mean is this - as the producers have seemed to dismiss the ideas of the island being in a snowglobe (ie in it’s own seperate universe), say we have a hypothetical island somewhere in the Earth’s Ocean.
Now, lets asume this island has a strong electromagnetic field and a natural casimir effect (and who knows what else). All these forces working in tandem result in a localized distortion of space-time, eliminating the need for a snowglobe. So, a person or persons entering the distortion might begin to feel the effects of the island (ie rapid healing, different rates of time) but are still on the Earth, as the island is still a physical location.
I don’t know about you, but aside from all the strange powers and happenings on the island, the place looks very Earth-like to me… Hawaii to be exact :)
Hey again,
Just to expand on the idea that the island is physically on Earth but has a space-time distortion…
Lets assume Particle A has a half-life of 1 minute. Particle A exists on Earth, as it’s in a particle accelerator. Particle A is accelerated to 60% the speed of light. Einstein’s special theory of relativity comes into play at those speeds; hence a localized space-time distortion occurs. To the casual observer, Particle A lives longer, as it appears to now have a half-life of 1.25 minutes (I’m not making these numbers up. Read about time dilation). In this way, Particle A still exists in our universe (and our dimension), but experiences the world differently because of this space-time distortion.
Now, I’m not suggesting the island is moving extremely fast. There are other ways to distort the fabric of space-time - including the presence of a large gravitational field. But let’s not forget that the electromagnetic force is 10^37 times stronger than gravity…
Love the theory and the updates. Totally makes sense about where the island actually is . So Desmond leaves the island in his yacht and sails west. Would he have been heading towards the cape of Southern Africa.(cape of storms.) And could the southern currents which travel east to west in the southern ocean have simply turned his yacht around and back to the island?
Dear wtfsignmeup,
Excellent point about Desmond trying to leave the island! The currents could have played a factor. Remember, even the losties’ raft was brought back to the island via the currents. Maybe the only way to counter the current (and hence escape the localized space-time distortion, if there is one) is to travel at an angle of 325 degrees, or a bearing of North-North-East away from the island? Ben might have known this, hence his information to Michael…
Dear everyone,
With regards to a post I recently read by Jukin (Beginings of a theory), what if the Island is supposed to be a creative retelling of the Atlantis myth?
I looked up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Location_hypothesesofAtlantis , and learned there are currently no modern theories that place Atlantis in the Indian Ocean.
However, one must consider this - In Ancient Greek times the terms “Ocean” and “Atlas” both referred to the ‘Giant Water’ which surrounded the main landmass known at that time by the Greeks, which could be described as ‘Africa-Eurasia’ (although this whole super continent was far from completely known to the Ancient Greeks), and thus this water mass was considered to be the ‘end of the (known) world’, for the same reason the name “Atlas” was given to the mountains near the Ocean, the Atlas Mountains, as they also denoted the ‘end of the (known) world’. So when Plato spoke of the Ocean of Atlantis it might also have been outside what we know today as the Atlantic Ocean.
By that account, the Indian Ocean would have fallen into the same body of water, as it borders Eastern Africa and South Asia. It could be why the writers made a creative decision to place the island there rather than in the Pacific, which “may not have existed” to the Greeks…
That’s weird,
20 minutes ago, this theory stood at +20 with 20 votes. Now, it’s at +18 with 20 votes!
What gives?
Very well done! I once posted a theory on a gut feeling that the big hint in the pilot episode that the writers told us to look for was the pilot himself and the title the pilot actually alluded to the hint however it is disguised by actually being a “pilot” episode. I believe there is a conspiracy and the pilot was involved and was killed to cover it up. My theories are based on gut feelings and never really contain a good amount of facts or research. But I know in my gut that you are on to something here that is beyond imagination and creativity that many theories are based on. Your theory is the most factual and well designed that I have seen. Very well done, I’m glad that I decided to come back here and see if I’ve been missing anything good. Turns out that I have! +1
Dear nsnstvprk,
Thanks for your compliment! Like you’ve ponted out, I tried to base this theory on facts rather than hunches…
wow! This makes sense!! 1+ for me
Alright, I am the first to comment on the point that you made about the whole “Also, there definitely isn’t any astronomer or meteorologist on the island at present, as he/she would have tried to determine the island’s position using the constellations and other sky-related techniques…”
Well, I posed this a while ago… because I am the only one who ever picked up on this…. http://lost-theories.com/theories/2007/jun/20/island-location/
Now, basically it states that Karl & Alex sat in his backyard on the main island and look at the stars. In particular “Ursa Major” aka the Big Dipper. The Big Dipper includes the North Star, which is not visible at all in the Southern Hemisphere. Believe me, I did research and it can be viewed slightly below the Equator, but is very rare. So therefore, the island is in the North somewhere.
This my friend disproves your theory of the East Africa Vortex. Unless of course they are looking through a vortex into another one in the north… but does it work like that?
Also, couldn’t you make your calculations work so that they are in the Hawaiian Vortex? I decided that would be the most logical place for them to be. It is shot in Hawaii after all.
Overall though, awesome research and I loved this theory.
A + only for all the hard work. It’s pretty good though.
Dear JWLOST,
I have to respectfully disagree with your postulate.
Your postulate disproves my theory ONLY if the constellation in question is Ursa Major.
In “stranger in a strange land” Karl tells Kate and Sawyer that he and Alex used to sit in the back yard and make up names for the constellations.
The operative words here being “make-up”…
As Alex and Karl have been on the island presumably all their life, I see no reason why they should know about the real Ursa Major. Karl refers to his and Alex’s make-up constellation of “Ursa Theodorus”, NOT Ursa Major. And I doubt he did his research to find out that Ursa Major was once refered to as the Teddy Bear…
No, I did the research to find out that Ursa Major is Ursa Theodorus, maybe he didn’t know that they are the same thing, but he did know at least “Ursa Theodorus” and that backs up my observation. They wouldn’t make it a point to put that into the story line (especially something as defining as stars) without a reason.
I will have to go back and re-research it again and provide the facts in a new theory.
Dear JWLOST,
“Maybe he didn’t know that they are the same thing, but he did know at least “Ursa Theodorus” and that backs up my observation.”
Consider this:
I live in the Northern Hemisphere, in an isolated community (think the Amish) with little or no contact with the outside world.
In my spare time, I look up at the stars and decide to name the patterns they make. Note I am “making-up” my own names for the constellations….
One constellation looks very much like a “cross,” thus I name it the “Great Cross.”
As you should probably know, the Southern Cross, a constellation only visible in the Southern Hemisphere has been called the Great Cross…
Are we talking about the same constellation?
This is what I’m trying to get across. As for making a point to mention it in the storyline, it could simply be a thematic element (Polar Bears, the kids’ teddy bear etc)
Don’t worry, we should know the truth within 3 years (I hope!) ;)
I live in Mauritius . Yipee !
Great theory +1
But i have one stupid question to “debunk” you theory ….
If the island is indeed located in the indian ocean, why would Jack (in the last season’s finale ) be trying his luck to go back to the island by trying different flights ( routes ) every friday?
Dear iwanttobelieve,
Thanks for the vote!
With regards to your question, either Jack never finds out the true location of the island, or whatever natural casimir effect the island has recloaks it from the outside world.
So, if he were to sail out to where I think the island is,he would find nothing! The only way to return to the island is to enter a precise point in one of the 12 vortices…
Knowing the only person who escaped from the island is dead (I’m assuming Michael is in the coffin!), he tries to kill himself. In the meantime, he’s hoping fate will crash a plane in the exact coordinates and he will miraculously survive to find his lost paradise again…
the numbers are primarily the Valenzetti equation, but the fact that they fit into every other possible numerical formula in the show would verify them as coordinates, or whatever you call them up there too!
And in the coffin was Locke; someone screencapped it and closed in and in and it said ‘john’.
While browsing around the Oceanic Airlines site (www.oceanic-air.com), i found the following two statements hidden behind the ‘important announcement’ :
“If anyone should find this message, please get word I’m alive and stranded on an island somewhere in the South Pacific. Please send help soon. Things are bad. And they’re getting worse…”
“I survived a horrific plane crash and am stranded on an island somewhere Northeast of Australia and Southwest of Hawaii. In the event that I am never found, please forward word of my fate to my parents.”
Oceanic-Air is an official Lost site.
+1 because it’s a very good theory. Based on events that are mentioned or shown in eppisodes.
thelostboy… I tried the site and it isn’t working anymore. When did you find this? Also, do you think that has anything to do with Rachel/Persephone? Since we never really heard from her again.
Dear thelostboy and JWLOST,
Although the website is off-line, you can find out more from www.lostpedia.com - the Lost Wiki.
Even though it’s an official site, I wouldn’t consider the survivor’s message as canon (unlike say the Hanso Foundation Website).
Hypothetically, even if we were to consider the survivor’s message, it doesn’t prove anything: The survivor is just as clueless as our other crash survivors. Ask any of the surviving season 3 losties, and they’d tell you they were “survivors of a horrific plane crash, and stranded on an island somewhere Northeast of Australia, Southwest of Hawaii, and near Fiji…”
And I don’t think it has anything to do with The Lost Experience’s Rachel…
Dear lostmissy,
Thanks! :)
Very good theory.
maybe i read to fast but what is Echos brother plane in the island, considering that those planes dont have to much fuel, it would mean that the island is close to Africa… maybe it’s been posted…
why is it so important where is the island?????????
the site is not offline. i think there is something wrong with the link. try typing oceanic-air.com.
truman, i dont think it’s very important where the island is ( to the show ) but as a viewer, you naturally want to know where they are stranded. in the end, it could even turn out to be some island no one hasn’t discovered or isnt on the maps yet. it’s all up to the show’s creators. it’s just fun trying to figure it out.
Dear you_knowthename, Firstly… ‘Hi’ from Britain… I just wanted to say that I found your theory quite interesting (and quite plausible).. Its the best theory on this site in terms of your reasoning and facts.. But as much as I think your theory is the best (I am 99% on your side), there are few tiny issues which prevent me form being 100% convinced…
In support of your argument.. some science webistes suggest that you can see the Ursa Major/Minor in the southern hemisphere during Autumn (otherwise known as seasonal visibility)… so there is a slight possibility that the constellation that Alex and Carl renamed was indeed the Ursa Major/Minor…
Does anyone indeed know whether you can/cannot see the Ursa Major/Minor from the region near Mauritius? Cause this would help settle the issue…
I dont see how the pilot could be part of a bigger conspiracy.. as he didnt know the plane would crash (or enter the vortex).. the plane crash was an accident brought on by Desmond’sfailure to push the button… their arrival on the accident was not orchestrated… it may have been ‘fate’ but it cant be part of a conspiracy.. because Desmond brought about the accident and Desmond has no hidden agenda….
Unless of course.. the plan crash was not actually caused by the electromagnetic anomoly created when Desmond failed to push the button… maybe this has been thrown in as a red herring by the show’s writers to trick us.. and lead us away from the truth of what caused the crash?
I would love it if you were right in your theory - so feel free to prove me wrong….
My goodness, +1 just for the effort and research. I don’t know if this is what the producers are actually after, seems like too much story to develop and tell in the remaining three seasons, but it is well researched and articulated.
Thank you.
Wow, impressive. I had a very similar theory towards the end of season three, but didn’t research like you did due to school and such; the result being it got mutilated. However, I must say you have made a good arguement, and I must say that something along the lines of your theory or that of the lost city of Atlantis how the triangles may have been created by them or something eccentric and what have you. Anyways, Bravo.
I apologize in advance: I always seem to be the one disputing theories here. Probably, not the way to become popular, but that’s not what we’re doing here, right? We’re trying to make educated guesses and see how well they work.
Your theory is certainly long and intricate enough. No doubt.
Let’s start with Cindy. I have a theory that covers her (and more) elsewhere on this site. According to you, Jack recognizes her, and when she says its complicated, you suggest that instead of their current situation and conversation, she has suddenly had some kind of acid flashback and she is talking about the navigational details from 2 months back. That isn’t how conversation usually works.
Now, apparently, you have Cindy and the pilots volunteering to take a fall from 30,000 feet, because they are knowingly heading in the wrong direction, and at least Cindy is in cahoots with The Others. These arguments require us all to ignore 2 facts: Human nature, and the facts established on the show. Non-religious people do not volunteer to be in plane crashes. And, we established in “Live Together, Die Alone” that the crash was a random accident caused by Desmond’s failure to push the button on time. You theory thus reads: Cindy and the pilot knowingly headed in the wrong direction, knowing in advance that Desmond would see the rip in Kelvin’s suit, follow him out, accidentally kill him, get back to the hatch late, and thereby cause the plane to crash. No, No, No, No, No.
The numbers. Oh my god, the numbers. The numbers, as we all know by now have something to do with some kind of doomsday equation. Taking those numbers and trying to apply them to everything is not theorizing: it is numerology. We could take those numbers, assign them to letters in the Farsi language, rearrange them at random, translate them into English and find out that “Paul is Dead.” Just because you can take those numbers and rearrange them until it fits some pre-existing theory is not theorizing, it is the LOST version of creationism. Ask yourself this: why would the numbers in the equation match up in any way whatsoever with a coordinate system which was designated in a completely arbitrary manner? If international agreement had set the 0 meridian in Minsk instead of Greenwich, would the numbers in the equation change? This is nonsense.
The reason they crashed in daylight. How about this: Shooting that scene in the dark would have been impossible.
Vile vortices? Really? Like Lost isn’t complex enough, now we have to bring in your admittedly pseudoscientific (Literally: fake science) mumbo jumbo? Adding magic somehow clears up the mystery? No.
I realize that yours is the most popular theory on this site. Congratulations. Its only flaws are that it is illogical, adds unnecessary layers of magic, resorts to numerology, and ignores established facts. That’s a -1.
In response to WillsDad:
I agree with you that Cindy and the pilot could not be secretly wprking woth the Others - because their winding up on the island was purely accidental…
However, your criticisms of the numbers, the reason they crashed in daylight, and the vile vortices are not ‘thought out’ and lack imagination.
The numbers: While I agree that the numbers can be rearranged until it fits some pre-existing theory, they obviously have some significance in the series and to the island - what that significance is, has yet to be revealed. .. the writers of LOST are extremely clever and must have a reason for including them in the show…
The plane crashing in daylight: Is this a production error or an intentional plot device (because of the location of the island)… no one other than the writers know… but the theory about the island being in the Vile Vortice is temptingly good…
Vile Vortices: You may remakr that the vile vortices are psuedo-science, but they do exist in reality — they may not have the power to transport people, planes and ships to other dimensions (or other places) but the vortices do exist and have been know to sites of unexplainable occurences… also, seeing as LOST is a sci-fi show, the vile vortices sem like a logical explanation… the series has (by its own accord) introduces the notion of supernatural powers (i.e. magic) in the form of the apparitions, the black smoke, and the fact that the peopl with interweaving lives have all ended up on the same island….
Dear Littlebritain, losttheorist and Andrew,
Thanks for the positive reviews! And also to Littlebritain for the defense of my theory ;)
Dear Willsdad,
I’d also like to thank you for the constructive criticism to my theory.
However, I have to disagree with the points you bring up.
My theory does NOT read: Cindy and the pilot knowingly headed in the wrong direction, knowing in advance that Desmond would see the rip in Kelvin’s suit, follow him out, accidentally kill him, get back to the hatch late, and thereby cause the plane to crash.
We have established in “through the looking glass” that the others were indeed building a runway on Hydra Island. The purpose remains a mystery for now. My conjencture would be the pilot and Cindy knew in advance that they intended to head for the island, but NOT to crash on it. That was completely unforseen, and caused (by the evidence now in hand) by Desmond. And about the comment to Jack “it’s complicated,” Cindy’s not talking about a conversation that happened 2-3 months ago. Rather, I’m assuming she could not divulge the entire truth to Jack about their predicament.
To sum it up: Cindy and the Pilot (and presumably the other cabin crew) knew of the intended destination of flight 108, but none of them expected that the plane would crash. Furthermore, only the pilot and Cindy survived the crash, and only Cindy made it past the 1st day…
Continued:
Secondly, let’s consider your next point, “why would the numbers in the equation match up in any way whatsoever with a coordinate system which was designated in a completely arbitrary manner? If international agreement had set the 0 meridian in Minsk instead of Greenwich, would the numbers in the equation change? This is nonsense.”
The numbers were not designated in a completely arbitrary manner by me. As I have reasoned above, I substituted the numbers in reverse (reversibility/opposites being a prominent theme on the show) according to the standard correspondances of degree, minute, and second to come up with my theoretical location.
The writers ALSO did not designate these numbers in a completely arbitrary manner. There is plenty out there on the significance of the numbers 4 8 15 16 23 42 that cover the entire span of human history and knowledge, be it in mathematics, historical references, religion and yes (squirm), numerology.
We also know that the numbers feature significantly on the show. Is it really so irrational to assume they could help with determining the island’s location too? I didn’t think so…
Furthermore, to answer your question: If I were a Lost writer and knew that the 0 meridian was set to Minsk instead of Greenwich, I’d keep the numbers the same. BUT when I plug the numbers into the coordinate system like I did - Hey Presto! That’s where I would place my “lost island”. In my opinion, you’re viewing the picture from the wrong angle. It’s not about suiting the numbers to the coordinates of the island (Akin to numerology). It’s about suiting the coordinates of the island to the numbers!
Continued:
Now for the reason they crashed in daylight. Agreed, shooting that scene in the dark would have been impossible, or at the least, extremely difficult.
However, as in my preceding arguement, we KNOW they crashed in daylight in the pilot episode. NO other established fact was give to us aside from the plane was 8 hours into the flight (this from the pilot). Only later did we find out the plane departed Sydney at 2.15 pm, and crashed on the island at 4.16 pm.
Please consider this hypothesis…
If I were a writer and wanted to keep the story simple and clear cut, I would have the plane crash in broad daylight at 4.16 pm (this corresponds to the Pearl Station reading) at +12 GMT (Fiji Time). 8 hours of flight time would mean Flight 108 departed Sydney at 6.15 am local time (+10 GMT) or 8.15 am Fiji Time, instead of the established 2.15 pm. There you go. Both daylight solutions. If I thought 6.15 am was too early a flight for my losties to catch, as a writer I could easily bump up the departure time to 7.15 am and have them crash at 5.16 pm, taking into account these times were only to be revealed in later episodes.
I hope you understand the point I’m making here. I believe the discrepencies exist for a reason, and not as an error on the writers or producers parts…
Continued:
And finally for the Vile vortices. Although I admittedly categorize it as pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo with the addition of teleportation, it does weave the evidence we have garnered so far into a comprehensive theoretical framework. I challenge you (and anybody else) to solve this mystery without resorting to vile vortices and teleportation. And bad writing or shooting conveniences should be out of the question…
From a truly scientific viewpoint, my theory can be considered highly improbable (certainly not illogical), but does not add unnecessary layers of magic (teleportation exists in a quantum mechanical framework, but I’d be the last person to suggest we expand it to a macro-world viewpoint in reality. And that’s one layer and not layers), resorts to numerology (no it does not), and ignores established facts (which are?).
As a scientist and a member of the Commitee for Skeptical Inquiry , I think I’m more of a skeptic than you are. But let us remember that this is LOST, and everything we see on the show should not be taken as completely 100% real and how the world could and should work. Thus, you have a team of (in my opinion) brilliant writers who try and incorporate everything they can (be it scientific, pseudoscientific, or even totally “out there”) into an intricate framework which exhibits a certain resemblance of order. That being said, I don’t think we are supposed to see the show in a linear, completely truistic manner. We should open our minds and suspend disbelief for a moment and allow the posibility for the “weirdness” on Lost to exist in it’s own universe. Some people see things the way they are and ask “why?” Others dream of things that never were and ask “why not?”
Although I don’t agree with your -1 assesment of my theory, I nevertheless respect your opinion…
Dear Everyone,
Flight 108 = Flight 815 - those darned numbers!!! :)
To: Littlebritain:
Pay closer attention, sir. It is the original poster who admitted that the silly part of his post was psuedoscience. I merely agreed, and pointed out that such rot is not an “explanation.” It is like a scientist and a creationist discussing the origins of the universe. The scientist has facts that support a theory that explains the beginnings of the universe to a fraction of a second after the Big Bang, but can go no further. The creationist jumps up and says “AHA! - you are stupid. The universe was created by magic.” Well, telling the scientist, and us, that the answer is “magic” is not really an answer. It is another question. Whose magic? How does the magic work? Where did the magician come from?
The numbers are important, no doubt. But at this point we have some information about them. Trying to fit them into star patterns, or the size of Kate’s jeans, or to coordinates is just not reasonable. They are going to be shown to be significant, but it will have some real-world significance to human survival. Why would arbitrary star patterns conform to such information? At this point all the people obsessed with numbers are doing is pointing out insignificant coincidences, and trying to believe that there is some deep truth in the coincidence.
Vile vortices exist, huh? Perhaps you could provide a link to a scholarly journal with information on the reality of the Bermuda Triangle and these other Vile Vortices? Fact is, when I was 12 I bought a book about the Bermuda Triangle. Then I grew up, and realized that it was crap.
The essence of science fiction is to postulate a situation based on an, imaginary, but plausible, extension of a known technology or scientific fact. That is why “2001: a Space Odyssey” is science fiction, and “Harry Potter” is not. No plausible science fiction is based on discredited science; the educated audience will not stand for it. A sci fi story whose premise is that the earth circles the moon will not be accepted. People know that it is false. In the same way, a conclusion to Lost that includes the Bermuda Triangle or vile vortices, will not fly. Most Lost fans are too scientifically literate to accept it. Present company excepted, of course.
Dear YouKnowTheName:
The flight and the construction of the runway have nothing to do with one another. It makes no sense for the pilot to head towards a runway that is still under construction 2 months later. Surely you can see that?
As for the numbers, I continue to be uncomfortable with the generally accepted idea that because the numbers are going to be significant in some way, therefor, the numbers MUST be applicable to every single thing that gets seen or done on this show. Kate wears size 4 jeans. Rose wears a size 16 dress. Hurley’s neck size is 23. Jack’s sport coat was a 42 regular. OMG! The numbers! Its all clear now! They crashed because of their clothing sizes!
You are right about the timeline for the plane. My issue is that I cannot believe that on day one of shooting, the writers, producers, art people, actors etc had ANY idea what kind of fanatical attention to detail the show would engender among fans. And the fact that they took off during the day, flew for 6 hours or so, and landed during the day probably has a lot more to do with practical and artistic considerations (e.g. a plane crash scene that you can’t see because it’s dark is not very dramatic), than with any deep dark mystery. I think sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and you are allowing yourself to be led down a dead end by focusing obsessively on minor details.
Anyway, you’ve spent way too much time on me. Yours is the most popular theory, by far and, as the creationists argue, if most people believe it, it must be true.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion.
In response to WillsDad:
You have a tendancy to write a load of rubbish don’t you? It’s obvious that because your ‘nexus/temporal theory’ is a flawed and poorly rated, you want to try to discredit YouKnowTheName’s theory (which is highly popular on this site)…
It is actually your theory that is more fanciful than Harry Potter as well as heavily flawed.. so I cant see how you are in any position to criticise YouKnowTheName’s theory…
If you dont believe in supernatural forces thats fine (neither do I) but this is after all a sci-fi show- which like Star Wars, has an element of fantasy in it (e.g. the Force)… Also, how do you explain the black smoke (which has the strength to pick up people and thro them about??) or Jacob.. or the appratitions.. these are clearly supernatural.. and the beauty of the show is that the writers will slowly reveal all over the next few years… And by the way - you need to structure your theories better.. they are badly written and poorly constructed.
Amazing.
Dear WillsDad,
“Anyway, you’ve spent way too much time on me.”
On the contrary, sir, I’ve been waiting for someone to challenge my theory or disprove it. I’d like nothing more than for a person to point out a serious flaw in my argument. That way, we could come up with another theory that was stronger than this one. That is, after all, the nature of science, right?
However, if your counter-point is that my logic is flawed because (unlike you) I’ve kept an open mind and allowed the presence of supernatural phenomena based on the canonical evidence presented on the show, then I believe you are mistaken.
Like I’ve said, the events on Lost definitely invoke an understanding not strictly limited to a scientific perspective. Religion, pseudoscience, mysticism and a whole range of others exist in the show’s mythology. Surely you can’t deny that.
To accept my theory based on the facts that I have presented, one needs only to open up to the possibility of 2 events.
Firstly, Vile Vortices exist around the planet (Bermuda Triangle etc). As I’ve said a dozen times, in the real world, there is no concrete evidence to prove undeniably that such places exist. But this is LOST.
Secondly, these vile vortices are linked via wormhole-like conduits, with the ability to teleport objects to and from other vortices. Again, although quantum teleportation in the form of virtual particles, and the presence of quantum tunneling exist in nature, one should never apply it to the macro-world in reality. But let’s not forget, this is LOST.
As you’ve postulated, the essence of science fiction is to present a situation based on an imaginary but plausible extension of a known technology or scientific fact. But the fact of the matter is Lost is MORE than just sci-fi. Fantastical elements exist in it as well, but it could still fall under the banner of “sci-fi.”
Consider Star Wars, as dear LittleBritain has pointed out above. At its core it could be considered sci-fi, but are you going to call it crap because there is a mystical “force that surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together?”
Consider Star Trek. At its core it could be considered sci-fi, but are you going to call it crap because there are mystical “dilithium crystals” allowing Federation Starships to attain warp speed?
Consider the X-Files. At its core it could be considered sci-fi, but are you going to call it crap because each episode leads Mulder and Scully to discover unexplained, supernatural phenomena, and the occasional alien invasion/abduction scenarios that have, for the most part, been debunked time and again?
Continued,
Now for your counter-arguments. Of course the flight and the construction of the runway have nothing to do with each other. I never meant to suggest that. However, what I meant to suggest was that the possibility of flights over the island without crashing were highly probable. If no plane could reach the island, why build a runway in the first place? Ergo, Flight 815 could have been heading for the island all along (and not the runway being built on Hydra Island two months later as you understood it), but was unfortunately downed thanks to Desmond…
Trying to fit the numbers into the coordinates is reasonable if you understood my earlier argument. It is the other way around! As a writer, I am presented with the numbers 4, 8 15 16, 23, 42. I then take it upon myself to include it in every way imaginable in the show. It does not have to mean anything other than the fact it simply exists there, without a cause and effect. Kate wearing a size 4 jeans does not MEAN the plane will crash. That is completely illogical, as I’m sure you are aware. But if the coordinates to the island did incorporate the numbers, it’s just another factor added by the writers to confirm my hypothetical location for the island. Simple as that…
About the plane timeline, I’m sure the writers and producers DID in fact predict the rabid fanbase Lost would generate. They premiered it at Comic-Con 2004! And though they might not have known it during the pilot episode, they had ample time to change the times (mind the pun) in order to resolve this issue. Let’s not forget the plane departure time was revealed midway through Season 1, and the crash time revealed at the end of season 2!
By then, the writers and producers would have been rather daft to not notice the lost fans focusing obsessively on minor details. Hence the presence of anagrams, red herrings and other clues (I half expected the season 3 finale to be a flash forward because of Jack’s Motorola Razr, which I initially believed to be a prop error!)
Continued,
To end this round, I don’t agree to how you believe this argument is akin to a scientist and a creationist arguing the origin of the Universe. In the present observable universe, most scientists would agree that it works and exists without the presence of supernatural causation or phenomena. But then again, this is the LOST universe. All such yardsticks, premises and assumptions have been thrown out the window. How are you to know that Lost does not invoke such supernatural events? Who are you to decide that science prevails, reigning supreme over everything else on the show? Haven’t we been given enough clues to allow the fact it could be just the contrary? Man of Science, Man of Faith, anyone?
And in my humble opinion, my theory is the most popular not because, as the creationists argue, “if most people believe it, it must be true.” My theory is popular because nothing we have seen so far contradicts the evidence I have presented, IF you would be open-minded enough to allow the supernatural (in this case vile vortices and teleportation) to exist in the Lost Universe.
I especially like the part where people whose theories aren’t highly rated can’t comment on your stuff.
I can’t see why you’re so upset. You’ve got the most points. You’ve won. Try to remain calm.
It’s all vile vortexes, wormholes through planet Earth, and magic. Got it.
+1…
1) Something you might want to add to the idea of Des leaving and getting turned around by currents: When people leave the island, or try to figure out which direction to do anything in, they are doing so from the standpoint that the island is somewhere near Fiji, and theres a good chance that is throwing off, at least somewhat, their success in getting anywhere.
2) Doesn’t this theory also explain some real life mysteries? Amelia Airhart (obviously spelled wrong) comes to mind.
3) I’m pretty convinced at this point that Dharma/Whidmore/Whoever owned the Oceanic 815 plane and the one that “crashed” according to Naomi, if there even is one. Tell me an easier way to transport the Losties to one very, very specific place half way across the world in the short window of time you get after you “miraculously” manage to put them all in the same place. I think it also explains the whidmore pregnancy test and some more that I probably havent thought of.
4) I’ve heard the smoke monster referred to as Cerberus somewhere before, which makes the island being a part of the “Devil’s Triangle” sort of convenient too, right?
peace
I have a question. I’m a newbie, I’ll admit, but, here goes…
The poster believes in vile vortisese and wormholes through the earth AND says he’s a skeptic.
Can he do that?
Overlong. Repetitive. Poorly organized. Stream-of-consciousness.
Perhaps somebody with some writing skills could take this…stuff… and polish it? I’m sure there is a good idea or two in here, but the poor writing just makes it too hard.
Sorry.
An absolute joy to read . The best THEORY iv read since the UltimateTheory which was halfway through season 1. SmokeOnTheWater, too hard to what? read? seems like your in the minortiy. People need to remember that these are only theories! and until debunked or disproved are as valid as the next persons, its what makes Lost so FN great! The smoke monster is called the Cerberus on the side of the hatch door in “Lock Down” i think, you know the one? with the cool neon paint and the latin writing. incidently that is also my desktop wallpaper.
Dear SmokeOnTheWater,
Sorry you couldn’t understand it. You’d be the first to comment on my “poor writing skills”…
Dear TropicalPolarBear,
Yes I’m a skeptic, only when it comes to the natural world. But this is LOST! If you told me vile vortices DO exist on Earth, I’d ask you for proof in the form of genuine scientific evidence… None exists at present…
Dear WillsDad,
People whose theories aren’t as highly rated are welcome to post here. I’ve enjoyed my discussion with you. Love the way you try to end it by saying I am the one who is upset. Very clever debating tactic…
Dear Pete and CaptainFilth,
Thanks…
So, what’s with the name? A Beatles reference? Or is this some Lost ref that I don’t get?
Dear Quarantine,
My nickname has nothing to do with lost :)
Dear everyone,
I find it quite interesting that soon after my debate with Willsdad, 3 newbies by the names of SmokeOnTheWater, TropicalPolarBear and Quarantine join the discussion and -1 this theory, and leave comments only in this thread…
Also curious is the fact that soon thereafter, my theory ends up in the “debunked” pile…
What a credible site lost-theories.com is…
Oh well, I’ll wait another 3 seasons and see if I get the last laugh…
Linda, is that you? What the hell are you doing here?
Sorry. When I start getting blamed for stuff, I automatically assume it is my ex-wife. Then I remembered: she doesn’t watch Lost. (That’s reason enough for a divorce right there.)
I admit it: I “minus one’d” you. If mine was the “-1” that got you “obsoleted” then….oh well. Just lucky, I guess. Consider this: right after I posted a comment to your theory, you went and dinged every single one of mine, and one of them, I think, disappeared because of it. Big deal. That’s how the game is set up; You know the game better than I and I guess you felt like you “won.”
I’ll also give you this, your writing is not awful. You are obviously not a professional writer, (e.g. sentences beginning with “and,’ “but,” and “however,” one-sentence paragraphs, passive voice, switching tenses, inconsistent capitalization, not knowing that the singular of “vortices” is “vortex,” erroneous use of “i.e.,” starting sentences with dashes, splitting adverbial phrases, book title not set off from ordinary text, etc.) but that doesn’t matter. We aren’t here to be dazzled by the writing, we’re here for the ideas. You are able to transmit ideas, and that’s the key. Some guy up above in one of the comments said he didn’t like one of my theories. Fine-lord knows he’s not the first. What was his argument to prove that my theory was bad? He said that it was poorly written. Attacking a theory by saying it is poorly written is an idiot’s argument, wouldn’t you agree?
I realize that as a Lost theorist, you can’t help but engage in conspiracy theories; occupational hazard, I guess. I would appreciate it, though, if, you could present some kind of evidence before smearing me with innuendo? It seems somewhat unfair. Or is that just you playing the game better than I, again?
Now, back to the serious matter at hand. I offer you a challenge.
(Drumroll, please)
I propose to meet back here in 2010 after the last episode. We will turn on our webcams for the whole world to see. If Ben has uttered the words “vile vortex” by that time, I will eat a bug. If he has not…YOU will eat a bug. We each get to choose the other’s bug.
Hey, I have just discovered that if you hit the “edit theory” button and simply hit “save” it does a Mikhail: